Albacore continued

[greenman407]

As youll recall I entered my ex-Subtek Albacore in last years competition. Here is the link to it:http://forum.sub-driver.com/showthread.php?824-Albacore
Now that the Oscar is almost done this baby is next. Shes going to get changed over to a duo-prop system.
STAY TUNED FOLKS!

[greenman407]

Just ordered the Caswell Plug N' Plate nickel plating system to nickel plate the white metal props that Dave sent me for this thing. I dont want these props to bend when we push the throttles all the way forward to chase down that Rogue Alpha just detected in US waters. Im going to trade paint with Ivan as soon as I catch em.

[Slats]

I look forward to that, you build beautiful subs and I am sure you will nail that conversion.
Best

John

[greenman407]

Thanks John, and please feel free to jump in there with any suggestions or observations.

[Slats]

Happy to mate, its a great little boat you have there. I love the video too.
I really enjoy the photos you dig up on 1/1 scale subjects, do you have a similar photo file on Albacore?
Best
J

[greenman407]

Thats an excellent Idea. To get this build started out right Ill post some full size pictures afterwhile.

[greenman407]

10187101881018910190101911019210193

[greenman407]

10194101951019610197101981019910200

[greenman407]

In the various pictures of the control room , notice how over the years that the controls and guages have changed.

[greenman407]

10201102021020310204102051020610207

[greenman407]

102081020910210102111021210213

[greenman407]

Here are some Albacore models from various sources that I have collected in picture form. I hope that there owners dont object as I dont know whos all they are. One of them is mine and a couple of the shots come from D&E Miniatures. The rest I believe are Canadian.
10214102151021610217102181021910220

[greenman407]

A couple more. I tell you what. I really like this paint job, although I dont believe it to be accurate for the X-Tail version. Of course I really like my bow plane instalation, which also isnt going to be accurate with a Duo-prop X-Tail either. What to do........What to do??? Are we to count rivets or make what mods that we want? Faithful modeling dedication to scale or some comprimises? I know, well do it semi scale and combine the best features available and ask forgivness later. Mumms the word!.
1022110222

[greenman407]

If youve ever seen some of the video of my 52" Rick Teskey Seaview youll note that its easy to see in less that ideal water conditions because of its light grey paint job. Its a real confidence builder when you always know where your sub is. This two toned paint job would be highly visible and thats a plus. Im considering it.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Yuck!

Turn in your Model Builder's card! You've been excommunicated from the club.

David,

[greenman407]

What? You dont like that paint job? Come'on, it was a real paint job, back in the day.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Which only appeared on ALBACORE phase-1, damit!

David, the Rivet-Counter

[greenman407]

Point well taken..........but its still pretty.

[greenman407]

Forgive, please, my displays of temporary insanity! You have to consider the source. Ive been a Sci-Fi fan all my life. Also HO Scale rivet counter as well as avid fast model boater. In some of those fields you are encouraged to use your own imagination and inventivness and apply it to your models. In other fields its just the opposite, faithful adherence to plans and drawings. Sometimes I forget which hobby im in. Due to a recent change in life circumstances, it looks like Ill be having a lot more time for this hobby, so ill be getting a lot more done in a shorter period of time.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I too am big into SF model building (hell, I've done miniatures for movie and TV productions). And I've found that arena to be just as demanding of 'accuracy' to prototype as you'll find in any model building group specializing in reproducing models of the 'real thing'.

Those who depart from adherence to prototype shape, color and finish are just kit-bashers, or trash-bashers in my book. They must be destroyed! Or, at the very least, banished to the other side of the city-limit.

Submitted: David Douglass Merriman lll
Keeper of the Flame

[jlday1256]

Aren't you the one who said, "what Merriman would do is use the kit decals [on a comment that they weren't to scale] and go sail my submarine"?

[greenman407]

My wife tells me that I am evil and must be destroyed.

[greenman407]

Heres a few more just for fun.
10254102551025610257102581025910260

[greenman407]

1026110262102631026410265

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Aren't you the one who said, "what Merriman would do is use the kit decals [on a comment that they weren't to scale] and go sail my submarine"?

It was either late, I was drunk or in the midst of a stroke when I said that.

[Slats]

Nice photos.

One question re this boat is I wondering what exactly is meant by a "pancake" diesel?

J

[Slats]

http://forum.sub-driver.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10254&d=1318880996
This photo is great, any idea who the built this one?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

http://forum.sub-driver.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10254&d=1318880996
This photo is great, any idea who the built this one?

Me.

It's the 'beauty' model Skip used to promote the product.

I got another a-building that will knock your collective socks off.

David

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Nice photos.

One question re this boat is I wondering what exactly is meant by a "pancake" diesel?

J

Take a Wasp Major corn-cob radial engine, reduce the number of cylinders and stacks, mount it vertically, then slap a generator on its bottom, and work the thing via the diesel cycle.

http://www.ohtm.org/collections/engines/images/eng_wasp.jpg

That's what the ALBACORE had in the way of diesel engines.

[Slats]

Take a Wasp Major corn-cob radial engine, reduce the number of cylinders and stacks, mount it vertically, then slap a generator on its bottom, and work the thing via the diesel cycle.

http://www.ohtm.org/collections/engines/images/eng_wasp.jpg

That's what the ALBACORE had in the way of diesel engines.

Thanks David, looks like complicated layout.
J

[Slats]

Me.

It's the 'beauty' model Skip used to promote the product.

I got another a-building that will knock your collective socks off.

David

Well that's probably the best paint job I have seen yet on any sub. Might be a good piece to document for the Gazette -(as if you didn't have enough to do already).

J

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

What I learned when painting and weathering miniatures for video and film recording was: OVER-STATE!

Unfortunately, what appears subtle and appropriate in a picture taken by the less than exacting optics of a ground-glass lens system (big screen motion picture, and stills) is a bit too garish when the same work is examined directly by the MK-1, Mod-0 hairy eye-ball.

David

[Slats]

Well it looks **** hot to me.
Then again I have the Mk 1 Four-eyed system in permanent operation.

[Albion]

What I learned when painting and weathering miniatures for video and film recording was: OVER-STATE!

Unfortunately, what appears subtle and appropriate in a picture taken by the less than exacting optics of a ground-glass lens system (big screen motion picture, and stills) is a bit too garish when the same work is examined directly by the MK-1, Mod-0 hairy eye-ball.

Davidunfortunately i find that the new mega pixel all singing all dancing cameras with flash seem to make subtle look garish

[greenman407]

I took these photos today to give me a reference to where the WTC and foam and weights are in the before modification state.10430104331043410435104361043110432

[greenman407]

1043710438104391044010441

[greenman407]

You can see here one of the tasks ahead is to compress all the same stuff thats in this WTC rear compartment into that same space after this new engine bulkhead with dual motors is put into place. The single motor in the old configuration is comepletely housed inside the motor compartment that you see atached to the WTC now which effectively is outside of the dimensions of the Acrylic tube. A tight squeeze to say the least.
10442

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Let me help you with that POS WTC, Mark. E-mail me ... or suffer my wrath!

David,

[greenman407]

Email on the way.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Email on the way.

You're e-mail keeps bouncing back to me. We'll work it here, then:

Tell me the length of this 3" WTC cylinder and the locations where I stick the forward and after ballast bulkheads. I'll build one up for you.

AND STOP IT WITH THOSE STUPID WATERTIGHT SERVOS!

David,

[Slats]

Mark,
have to loudly echo David on those "so called" WT servos. WT servos do not exist, there are some on the market that are water resistant but these are not designed for continuous submerged operation. I know the BB ship clubs have various methods of trying to protect servos when they go for a drink, but the issue is for longevity you won't achieve much.

The key overarching problem that WILL arise is not the servo per se, but the connection to the WTC. I have been there and done this many times and I will not have ANY external power connections to the WTC anymore. (A key reason why I pestered and threatened to break David's legs if he did not come up with a 3.5" SD with a forward battery compartment linked via conduit to the rear motor section). You can grease these connections, sleeve friction fit them through silicon tubes etc, and the water EVENTUALLY will find a home in these connections, causing problems.

David,
I am keen to know whether or not you produce an a different motor end cap for the 3" WTC (which is Out of production). I'd love to buy one where I can like your 2" and 3.5" SD range, it has snort connections and an easier to service gear box etc.

Whilst you no longer make the 3" if newer parts are available, I think a lot of guys might like to upgrade this old workhorse with them. I would certainly buy one. The old version with tapered arse end I'd love to replace with a flat ordinary end cap as per you 2" and 3.5" series SD.

Best

John

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

John,

I was going to surprise Mike, but might as well confirm that your ideas are actively being pursued: I'm re-introducing the 3" SD, with newly designed bulkheads. And, yes, it will be snort ready (THERE, Mike, I said it ... 'snort').

I'm open to suggestions as to design details and capabilities -- I won't start in on the bulkhead and hardware masters for a few weeks yet. There will be single and duel motor versions. You guys kick in ideas, I'll reduce the good ones to drawing features, share those documents with you all here, and we kick it around till we finalize the design. Just don't get stupid on me, that's all I ask.

OK, then. Floor's open to input, guys.

David,

[Slats]

John,

I was going to surprise Mike, but might as well confirm that your ideas are actively being pursued: I'm re-introducing the 3" SD, with newly designed bulkheads. And, yes, it will be snort ready (THERE, Mike, I said it ... 'snort').

I'm open to suggestions as to design details and capabilities -- I won't start in on the bulkhead and hardware masters for a few weeks yet. There will be single and duel motor versions. You guys kick in ideas, I'll reduce the good ones to drawing features, share those documents with you all here, and we kick it around till we finalize the design. Just don't get stupid on me, that's all I ask.

OK, then. Floor's open to input, guys.

David,

(my response is below, but rather than hi-jack Mark's excellent Albacore thread, should this go into a new posting? - If so Mr Caswell please move this on.)

-The 3" should have all the features that the 2.5" and 3.5" currently has. For the motor end cap the gear box contained in the dry amongst the two joined endcaps is by far the best setup. It is easy to maintain / service and is a great use of functional space. The standard 4 fitted 1/16" push rod seals should be supplied as is the snort fittings in the usual centre most location.

Inside the motor end cap tray, can we try an avoid the folded metal and go for a cast resin / moulded style tray setup. The folded metal is waiting to snap just like scored styrene. The longevity is inferior to the resin / moulded style arm and trays supplied in the older 3.5". The cost might be higher but as an end user I'd pay a little more for a resin / moulded style tray.

There should be room, for simplicity and availability of different sized servos. Be this micro sized, mini, the 3/4 "mid sized" servos, or the stock standard larger ones (if you are only running 3 control servos). I am a fan of the micro servos but I have to say I noticed (not sure why), that the smaller servos will stall far easier than the full sized ones, and can chuck out higher amps under load (not stalled) than the full sized ones too. The 3" D&E WTC was originally designed in a time when standard sized servos were the most abundant and affordable, the 3" can amply accommodate three of these with no problems. Let the end user determine what they want to use by NOT limiting the tray mounts to a particular size.

The ballast tank area needs perhaps to be a bit bigger volume. Perhaps you could let the end user determine at ordering this length. The original design as yourself and other Albacore skippers attest to, provided ample ballast for that boat, perhaps you offer that size as the standard and let customers at extra cost obtain a larger tank if necessary.

Dump the gas saver as standard equipment. You won't need it in a snort fitted boat. Do fit / supply a gas tank and mount it in the vertical plane.

The battery compartment is the perfect size for 7.2v "stick" batteries, and given that some nanny state run model boat clubs have got there knickers in a knot over the risk of Lipo fires, having the option of using this sized battery is a good one. This size also allows the Lipos to be fitted, and or putting the ESC in this compartment to.

Best

J

[greenman407]

Ok, the existing 3" acrylic tube is 16 5/8" long. The Battery compartment is(between the bulkheads) 5 7/16". Maybe we should increase that to 6". The Ballast tank bulkheads are set at 4 5/8" center of oring to center of oring. Maybe we could increase that a smidge as well. The existing engine compartment is 5 3/4" long but by the time you get the twin motor bulkhead in there you have lost quite a bit of that . So if we increase the engine compartment to say 8", that would help.

[greenman407]

And thanks for all the help guys, your suggestions carry a lot of weight with me.

[greenman407]

Dave, You asked for the dimmensions of my D&E 3" WTC. Now, what does your evil mind contemplate???

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

World domination; supression of all non-aligned thinking; re-direction of all females activity to my every want ... the usual stuff, Mark.

Oh, you mean the 3" WTC.

Sorry.

I'm re-introducing a re-engineered version of the single and duel-motor 3" SubDriver. You're my unsuspecting guina-pig, pal.

I can't get an e-mail off to you. Give me those dimensions here so I can fix you up.

David,

[greenman407]

I like being a Guinipig.............I think? I already posted the dimmensions. Scroll up a couple of posts on this page and you will see them.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Got 'em. Thanks, Mark.

David,

[roedj]

John,

I was going to surprise Mike, but might as well confirm that your ideas are actively being pursued: I'm re-introducing the 3" SD, with newly designed bulkheads. And, yes, it will be snort ready (THERE, Mike, I said it ... 'snort').

I'm open to suggestions as to design details and capabilities -- I won't start in on the bulkhead and hardware masters for a few weeks yet. There will be single and duel motor versions. You guys kick in ideas, I'll reduce the good ones to drawing features, share those documents with you all here, and we kick it around till we finalize the design. Just don't get stupid on me, that's all I ask.

OK, then. Floor's open to input, guys.

David,

David,

Here's my 'druthers' list:

1) I know it has SNORT but I'm hoping it will still have a Gas Saver mechanism.

2) I'm hoping that all, and I mean all, of the parts will be individually available for purchase.

3) Here's a wild one - I'd love to see a double sided bulkhead between the ballast tank and the forward compartment so the one could easily break it open there for experimentation purposes.

4) And finally, if there's any way to avoid the brass tube through the ballast tank I'd be most appreciative.

I'm hoping that I haven't gone too stupid on you,

Dan

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

David,

Here's my 'druthers' list:

1) I know it has SNORT but I'm hoping it will still have a Gas Saver mechanism.

2) I'm hoping that all, and I mean all, of the parts will be individually available for purchase.

3) Here's a wild one - I'd love to see a double sided bulkhead between the ballast tank and the forward compartment so the one could easily break it open there for experimentation purposes.

4) And finally, if there's any way to avoid the brass tube through the ballast tank I'd be most appreciative.

I'm hoping that I haven't gone too stupid on you,

Dan

Dan,

Naw, never. Always good stuff from you.

No gas-saver: As the gas is an alternative, emergency option, we endeavor to keep it simple -- no gas-saver linkage, too many hours to manufacture, install and set-up properly. And it was one of the biggest problems people in the field had with our WTC/SD's.

Yes, Mike is working up an entirely new catalog and we will post the individual parts for sale. Damned good point and something we should have done years ago.

Offering a double-sided bulkhead is inviting people to screw things up, which leads to idiots telling me my system is broken. Keeping it Simple, pal!

I'm keeping the conduit tube holes. Put a cork in it if you don't like it, Dan (I've always wanted to say that in this context!).

Keep it coming, folk's.

MIKE!!!! LET'S MOVE THIS DISCUSSION OUT OF THIS THREAD AND START A NEW ONE, "3-INCH SD DESIGN SUGGESTIONS"

(Sorry, Mark).

David,

[Slats]

David,

3) Here's a wild one - I'd love to see a double sided bulkhead between the ballast tank and the forward compartment so the one could easily break it open there for experimentation purposes.

4) And finally, if there's any way to avoid the brass tube through the ballast tank I'd be most appreciative.

I'm hoping that I haven't gone too stupid on you,

Dan

Dan - a resounding NO to both of those.
David will tell you that I have campaigned and pestered him for years to get his 3.5" SD having a conduit through the ballast tank connecting the forward battery room with the engineering compartment. 2 decades in this game I can tell you a key piece of long term reliability IS no EXTERNAL POWER connections. The conduit - first appearing in the 3" original D&E WTC is as far as I am concerned the gold standard for the end user not having to deal with EVENTUAL reliability problems of external electrics. Removing this would be a departure from sensible protocols and I for one would not buy any SD that did not have this feature.

Also one of the things that attracted me to David's gas system was the gas saver. Since the advent of Snort I can honestly say after 100's of hours on patrol that you don't need the gas saver system.

Best
J

[roedj]

David & John,

(stomping off to a quiet corner with salty tears streaming down my cheeks)

OK, OK, you win (this time).

Dan (misty in Michigan)

[greenman407]

Last night I was able to spend about an hour or so on this thing.
10611Here you can see the original bulkhead that holds the prop shaft. Its got to go to make room for the new bulkhead that will hold the new propshaft and next to it, the 2nd driven shaft. The next picture shows it cut down, ala dremel. It will remain there to provide support..
10612

[greenman407]

Then I fashioned a new bulkhead out of sheet plastic. It will house the bearings for the shafts. I will double it up where the bearings mount.
10613106141061510616

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

(my response is below, but rather than hi-jack Mark's excellent Albacore thread, should this go into a new posting? - If so Mr Caswell please move this on.)

-The 3" should have all the features that the 2.5" and 3.5" currently has. For the motor end cap the gear box contained in the dry amongst the two joined endcaps is by far the best setup. It is easy to maintain / service and is a great use of functional space. The standard 4 fitted 1/16" push rod seals should be supplied as is the snort fittings in the usual centre most location.

Inside the motor end cap tray, can we try an avoid the folded metal and go for a cast resin / moulded style tray setup. The folded metal is waiting to snap just like scored styrene. The longevity is inferior to the resin / moulded style arm and trays supplied in the older 3.5". The cost might be higher but as an end user I'd pay a little more for a resin / moulded style tray.

There should be room, for simplicity and availability of different sized servos. Be this micro sized, mini, the 3/4 "mid sized" servos, or the stock standard larger ones (if you are only running 3 control servos). I am a fan of the micro servos but I have to say I noticed (not sure why), that the smaller servos will stall far easier than the full sized ones, and can chuck out higher amps under load (not stalled) than the full sized ones too. The 3" D&E WTC was originally designed in a time when standard sized servos were the most abundant and affordable, the 3" can amply accommodate three of these with no problems. Let the end user determine what they want to use by NOT limiting the tray mounts to a particular size.

The ballast tank area needs perhaps to be a bit bigger volume. Perhaps you could let the end user determine at ordering this length. The original design as yourself and other Albacore skippers attest to, provided ample ballast for that boat, perhaps you offer that size as the standard and let customers at extra cost obtain a larger tank if necessary.

Dump the gas saver as standard equipment. You won't need it in a snort fitted boat. Do fit / supply a gas tank and mount it in the vertical plane.

The battery compartment is the perfect size for 7.2v "stick" batteries, and given that some nanny state run model boat clubs have got there knickers in a knot over the risk of Lipo fires, having the option of using this sized battery is a good one. This size also allows the Lipos to be fitted, and or putting the ESC in this compartment to.

Best

J

John,

With your good input and that of the others I've frozen the design of the 'new' 3" SD. Started work on the masters yesterday. Here's what I have as of tonight:

10624

As with the 'new' 3.5" SD I'll provide a long length of Lexan tube (1/8" thick wall) with installed after bulkhead -- and leave it to the client to determin the length of his ballast tank and forward dry space. Where he sticks the forward ballast bulkhead and forward bulkhead determins the length of those two compartments. Other than that, the SD's come assembled and tested.

Note in the above shot that I'm working both a single and a two motor motor-bulkhead.

[greenman407]

Cool! Looks good.

[greenman407]

Last night I payed further attention to this bulkhead. By using it as a Template I designed and cut out the end product, a bulkhead containing the bearing locations as well as a doubler.
10629106301063110632 The bearing locations dimensions center to center are determined of course by the center to center dimensions of the drive gears enmeshed. Tonight I will measure the bearings and drill out to accommodate them. Then we will need another bulkhead to carry the other side of the shaft on the port side. You will see.

[greenman407]

The center most mark is for the drive shaft which of necessity must be exactly parallel and on the centerline of the submarine. To make this work, one propeller, the farthest aft ,will be driven off of the stainless 3/16" shaft. The larger propeller will be driven by a brass tube that will be outside of the S.S. shaft. Or should I say that the S.S. shaft will be inside of the tube. Because of the close fit between the tube and the shaft there will be too much drag to use a full length tube so it will have to be sectioned up so that the close fitting tube will only be touching the shaft at the point of attachment of the bearing locations and the prop. Don't worry, Ill show you everything.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

... and lose the bow planes!

[greenman407]

OK..............ok

[Slats]

I like the bow planes but they cut em off during phase 2.

I guess Mike's not going to move the 3" SD build to its own thread????

J

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

How about it, Mike: Yank the 3" SD discussion to its own thread, please.

David,

[greenman407]

The bow planes were added because I didnt have a sub that used them and I wanted to see there effect first hand on a submarine. On this boat, if you try to go forward at anything other than creeping speed it will try to dive on you. It cant but it trys nontheless and then all forward motion stops as the prop comes out of the water and it looks like a duck with its tail feathers in the air looking at the bottom of the lake. By engaging the bow planes you can move forward quite fast without it diving when the bow planes are in the rise position. With the X-tail this sub is so manueverable that it doesnt need them at all.

[greenman407]

Notice last nights efforts. After making the first bulkhead and doubler I had to make another smaller one to go just behind it to carry the aft end of the second shaft. Ill get out my trusty laser projector and plot the centerline and the second shaft up and down locations for the bearings.
106551065610657

[greenman407]

Above you will notice all those nice little bearings. The first set is thrust bearings that will go between the two props to keep them from inducing drag to each other. I have already used a Forstner bit to countersink a space for them so that they will not be visible. The two smaller bearings will carry the second shaft. The larger ones will carry the 3/16" shaft encased inside the outer tube that will spin the larger propellor. As we move on in this thread it will become quite obvious. I have been running thrust bearings in my Oscar for a year and a half now with no problems. Of course I keep them lubed after a run..

[greenman407]

Here is a thread that I started a while back on it.
http://s181686668.onlinehome.us/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8746&hilit=Forstner+bits

[greenman407]

Also I had forgotten about Dave Merimans dual prop Albacore.
10658

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

It was a bullet. Scary fast!!

(finishing the 3"SD bulkhead masters today).

David,

[greenman407]

After this we want to add liquid polymar injection over the hull and props!...................You got anything for that Dave?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

After this we want to add liquid polymar injection over the hull and props!...................You got anything for that Dave?

Yeah, I got something for that:

LAY OFF THE CAFFIENE!

You nut!

David,

[greenman407]

The best laid plans of mice and men tend to come to naught.

[greenman407]

Last nights progress. Using a laser level I projected a line down thru the center and made my marks on the bulkheads. Then I moved the projector over exactly 3/4" and made the other marks. That was for lateral location. I then did the same for up and down, using the center of the cone as a reference. Today I will drill out the holes for the bearings.
10681106821068310684

[greenman407]

Next thing was to drill some precision holes for the bearings so that we wouldnt have a sloppy fit. That was accomplished with great care. Next I cut a piece of 3/16" S.S. shaft 3 and 1/2" long. Its dia. is a little snug fitting inside the bearings so Im going to polish it down for a slip fit. You can see the gathering of parts for the secondary shaft, which includes two roller bearings, the shaft, brass drive end, teflon gear, two locking collars and two teflon washers. I did some research on glueing S.S. to teflon and what they tell you to use is CA with an accelerator. Im going to rough up the inside of the gear and outside of the shaft at the proper location and CA it there. The bearing that goes in the far back is 1/2" outside dia. So I marked it and will cut it out carefully by hand as Im afraid a 1/2" drill bit will mess it up big time..
107141071510716

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Mark,

Very good work. Now ... not to **** on your parade ... some cautionary words about the tight fit you're heading to with your running gear:

Keep in mind that the polystyrene, Nylon gears, brass bushings, and stainless-steel shafts and bearings all have different coefficients of expansion/contraction with temperature change. Secure your bearings into those bulkheads with a flexible adhesive, or work up foundations that will displace laterally and longitudinally the amount needed (figure a travel no more than .030" each way) to compensate for both temperature induced structure dimension change and torsional and compressive structure displacements as a consequence of dynamic loads on the vehicles body.

Also, you want to mount those pinion and spur gears (the ones in the wet) so they mesh loosely. Remember: your spinning this stuff in an un-compressible medium (water), and the tighter the fit of the gears, the more water-hammer effect they will suffer (think, gear-pump).


Guess what clued me into the issues of structure expansion rates, structure elasticity, and fluid incompressibility issues as they relate to the ALBACORE phase-3's running gear, Mark?!....

David,

[greenman407]

Your own construction efforts on your Albacore phase 3?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Bingo! Hard learned lessons, Mark.

David,

[greenman407]

Ok , so, Ill file out the bearing holes slightly to give a little slop and to provide space for the glue to hold them in place. Im thinking 100% silicone?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Very good. Now you're talking.

David,

[ManOwaR]

Here's for inspiration, Mark. I'm just using a drill here to power the single input drive, but it does the trick. Also, forgive the floaties in the sink, they're from the boat just sitting in the shop collecting dust and other floating particulate lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn9rNxMw3mo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn9rNxMw3mo)

Joel

[greenman407]

Great video Joel, I paused it at the end to get a good look at your gearbox set-up. Nice!

[greenman407]

A little bit of progress here. The S.S. secondary shaft would not initially fit the bearings so I had to polish the shaft down using emory cloth and a drill press. Now they have a good slip on fit.
10789 So I was then able to Ca the nylon or teflon gear into place, paying carefull attention to roughing up the shaft and I made a jig to hold the gear in an absolutely straight condition so the gear would not wobble as it was spun.

Then I cut the drive tube to length and installed inside of it on each end the next smaller tube size bushings about 1" long. Thats so that the 3/16" S.S. drive shaft will have a good riding surface where the bearings go. The fit between the S.S. shaft and the tube is such that too much drag would be realized if I used a full length tube. Then to attach those bushings to the inside of the larger tube I employed Permatex High Temperature sleeve retainer. Its like red loctite on steroids. In fact if youve ever used red loctite you can put it on something and then take it right back off because it takes a while to dry. NOT THIS STUFF. Its like thin CA. Put it where it goes quickly because in 3 sec. you wont be able to move it. 1079010791

[greenman407]

I also filed out the bearing hole in the far back where the prop is at. Its ready to go as well. Today Ill be paying attention to polishing down the tube so I will have a slip fit on its bearings. Then the real hard part,............... stay tuned.

[greenman407]

The hard part was to take the other nylon gear that had a 3/16" hole in it and resize(drill) it to 1/4". Sounds easy, but to get it perfect so that there is no gear wobble will req. extra effort. I built a jig out of 1/4" x 1" flat bar. One for the top and one for the bottom to sandwich the gear and serve as a drilling guide. After long moments of careful alighnment it worked perfect. Sorry, no pictures. After this the newly drilled gear was CAed to the end of my tube shaft. Here it all is in a test fit: Next step will be to attach the bulkheads in place.:
10804

[greenman407]

Ok, we need to shift gears a little bit while I resolve a problem with one of the parts. In the mean time I can start to work on this nasty seem where the upper hull half meets the lower. In some places its worse than in others. Some places will req. filling and sanding with the Evercoat. Others will need pulling or pushing the hull halves into better alignment. Either way we might as well do it now. Here is some pictures of the state of affairs.
10834108351083610837

[greenman407]

Im going to use the same procedure that I used with the Oscar. Where I will be applying the evercoat Ill do a little at a time and I will apply Petrolium jelly to the upper surface. Just enough to prevent a bond to it from the Evercoat. The bottom will of course be roughed up. This one will be easier because the hull lifts straight up off the top for disengagement instead of having to slide it forward and then up. Then the sanding block. First 120 grit and then when we get close, 220 grit. Also the seem that was made between the upper and lower sail sections has always been an eyesore. Well take care of that as well as the nose section on the bow.

[greenman407]

10838 Heres a picture taken about 3 years ago. You can see the offensive seem that Im talking about. Back then I was more interested in the learning curve and getting her reliably operational. Now, lets get her looking good as well. No time like the present. Here you see her in "Hover mode".

[greenman407]

Hopefully this chart is big enough to see now.10848

[greenman407]

Here you can see the state of affairs of the bow seem and the area where the top hull meets the stern.
1089610897

[greenman407]

And now after application of Evercoat to the stern seem, and some sanding I was able to achieve good results.
10898

[greenman407]

Since I have no machine tools , I sent one of the propellors to my favorite machine shop to have a bushing installed. He did a perfect job. One of the benefits to it is that now that thick walled bushing will run right against the extended race of the rear bearing, absorbing all of the thrust load.
1089910900

[greenman407]

Here are a few more quick shots taken at the same time.
109011090210903

[greenman407]

Does anyone have any good pictures and info on the masts for the Albacore?

[greenman407]

Problem: The first propellor must be attached to the tube shaft. At the point of attachment it is two tube thicknesses thick. Inside of that spins the 3/16" S.S. shaft. If you were to tighten up a normal set screw you would crush or deform the tube causing drag and still not have a reliable connection. How do you do it?

Answer: You drill down thru both sections of tube and use one of these special set screws with a small extended tip. That way, after blue loctiting the set screw you have a positive conn. without binding. Im going to do it in two places. I dont want to lose this prop!
1093810939

[greenman407]

I just reached the point where I could slide all the parts together for a test fit. SO FAR..........SO GOOD!
10944

[greenman407]

Notice the paint scheme for the props.
10945

[greenman407]

The props will of course, have to be cleaned up and then plated with the Cawell nickel plating system. That should change their color drastically I would think.

[greenman407]

Just a little FYI. The hole size to drill for taping a 6-32 set screw is 7/64". The little nub on the end of it is a perfect fit for a 3/32" drill.

[greenman407]

And now the time consuming part, Evercoat and sandpaper, Evercoat and sandpaper, I think that you get the point. I dont know if any of you over the years have watched my threads on the "other site" on this modified Subtek Albacore but one of my complaints was that the plastic hull material is readily attacked by the solvants present in many easily available spot puttys and fillers. 3M Bondo single part "Glazing and Spot Putty" will eat it alive along with "Green Squadron" and "Tamiya" brands stuff. 3M Bondo two part doesnt seem to affect it. So thats what I am using to make it happen.

[Subculture]

That makes me wonder if the 3M spot putty you have is different to the 3M 'acryl red' spot putty which I use here in the UK? I have found it safe to use on any plastic substrate. If anything has a tendency to eat into styrene, it's the two part polyester putty, but I find that works to my advantage, and as it keys in very well.

[greenman407]

The Evercoat is definitely harder to sand than the spot putty. So I'm using the Evercoat on the areas at the seems where you want some durability but to help feather it in to the hull the spot putty is useful.

[Subculture]

Agreed. I only use spot putty for fairing and filling in pinholes, as I find it has virtually no strength and takes longer to dry- I look upon it as a very thick primer. For areas where I really need strength I use epoxy putty, but that stuff is really tough to sand, and much more expensive.

[greenman407]

Yes, and to compound the problem , this plastic is very soft. When I was using Evercoat on the GRP Oscar it was much easier to blend in because the GRP is so much more durable. This plastic however...........................

[greenman407]

I missed your reply on the other page there Subculture. The spot puttys that I mentioned here in the US not only soften it but turn it into tooth paste. It becomes even more apparent when you try to sand it as the neighboring surface that you are trying to blend in with keeps disappearing on you because it is gooey soft. But for some reason the two part stuff isnt creating a problem at this time.

[greenman407]

Alright, here is a step by step picture rendition of how the drive goes together.
11150Here you can see the two shafts installed and the nearest shaft is made up of the tube shaft and inside of it is the S.S. 3/16" shaft now properly cut to length. On the end of this S.S. shaft you can see mounted the brass drive dog.
11151

[greenman407]

11152From the tail end you can see the bearing in place and the tube shaft sticking thru it that the first propellor attaches to. Then the Stainless shaft sticking thru the proper amount.

[greenman407]

11153Then on goes the first propellor that is attached with two set screws.

[greenman407]

11154
Then you have the thrust bearings.

[greenman407]

11155
Then goes the prop spacer that I have previously cut in a recess using a Forstner bit to almost completely hide the thrust bearings.

[greenman407]

11156
Then goes the second propellor held on also with two set screws. Since this prop is in real danger of becoming lost Im going to take extra steps to secure it. Like using Red loctite to hold it on. It doesnt matter that it would make removal impossible because by removing the drive dog from the other end the whole shaft will come right out the back.

[greenman407]

11157
Then the prop spinner. Itll need to be installed with epoxy.

[greenman407]

To keep this thing lubricated I drilled two small holes just behind the bearing up front and then one thru the first prop down thru the tube. This is to get some light weight air tool oil down to cut the friction between the shaft and the inside of the tube. Remember that I purposly kept the area of contact small by installing the brass tube "bushings" at each end only. I know that this system will work because I have a Graupner Portofino that uses the same system.
1115811159

[greenman407]

Now back to filling and sanding. Also Ill be breaking open the plating kit and start plating these props.

[greenman407]

Working the joint , where the two hulls come together, viewed from underneath. A really close fit at the joint was achieved.1120011201

[greenman407]

Now for the port seem.I ended up installing an additional bulkhead inside at the bow to push the hull outward to even it up and reduce the amount of filler needed. Laying it over on its side makes it easier. Once again, petrolium jelly was used on the upper surface while Evercoat Easy sand was trowled in to some of the joint. After work today Ill begin sanding it.
1120211203

[Scott T]

When you apply that stuff could you lay wax paper over it and
squeege over the wax paper?

Scott T

[greenman407]

I suppose you could.For that matter you could squeege over the petrolium jelly. I have found that sometimes you mess yourself up trying to remove too much of your material that you just laid down. Your thinking that the more you remove the less sanding that youll have to do.. I try to get enough on there so that I dont have to reapply. Also because of the petrolium jelly , when you get close it will just flake off. If youll use a sanding block with 120 premium paper till you get close, it goes pretty quick without too much effort. After that use another sanding block with 180 then another with 220. Or skip the 180 as you prefer.Oh yes, keep your sandpaper grains cleaned out by wiping it over a cloth. Keep an eye on the grain of the paper. When it starts to get dull, change it. Its going pretty well.

[trout]

Greenman407,
Great info and fun watching your build! Thank you.

[greenman407]

Your Welcome!

[greenman407]

Your saying: Hey! Nothing is happening here! Yeah......Well..........Ive got some "Legal" matters to attend to. So for the next couple of days this thread will be kinda quiet I suppose. BUT, after thats done , the dust'l be flying again! Carry on ya Blokes!

[greenman407]

Ok , the dust is flying again. Making real progress on the port side. This final application of filler in the middle will be it. The bow and the stern areas are also done. That just leaves the starboard side. Then we will be looking at ingraving the sail for the sail mounted rudder. Then on to engraving in the speed brakes. Following that we will redo the masts and get some paint on it. WHEW!
11447

[greenman407]

I think that the sail rudder will req. more than just engraving. Studying some drawings, the stage 4 Albacores sail is longer due to the rudder. Also , If you look at the top of the sail, its a different shape. This will req. Cut and splice teqniques. OH LORD! Wheres my Dremel? Note the following pictures:
11453114541145511456114571145811459

[greenman407]

Note the third and fifth picture of the last posted pictures , the top of the sail near the rear is definitely a different shape than the smooth curve of earlier sails used on her. Note this older view:11460 But the drawings dont show it. Am I Blind???!!!

[greenman407]

So, this will req. cutting off the back of the present sail and making a rudder and grafting it on. While we are at it we will reshape the rear of the sail at the top. The other pics show some nice detail on engraving the rest of the sail. Get a load of what I think is a diesel exhaust outlet on the rear of the starboard side turtleback.

[greenman407]

While we are at it, whats this running down the top of the stern on the port side of the turtleback? A safety rail?
11461

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Just to make Mark crazy(er):

1146211463114671146811469114701147111472

[Subculture]

I remember all the work done on Albacore upgrades. What happended to all that stuff- in a dark corner somewhere?

[bassplayer1]

Oh boy, that's good stuff!!!

[greenman407]

Yes, good stuff, Thats what Im talking about. It looks like that sail rudder was operational. Im not going to go to the trouble. Dave, do you have anything showing location and size of the Radial dive brakes?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Thanks, Bassplayer.

Mark: I did the drawings (and fittings kit) for the origional SubTech release of the ALBACORE kit. I believe those drawings indicate the location and geometery of the dive brakes. Look at 'em.

I'll re-join my version of the 1/60 ALBACORE once I get out from under all these back-orders I have on hand (a good thing!).

David

11489114921149311494114951149811499115001150111502 1150311504

[trout]

I am amazed, inspired, and thankful for the knowledge that is shared here! Really good stuff!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Pay particularly close attention to what Mark's doing with his up-grade of the ALBACORE. Very good stuff.

David

[greenman407]

Thanks Dave, very good pictures of your molding tools and resulting Goodies! I "had" the drawings that came with the kit but due to my present "situation" they are no longer available to me. Im trying to go off of whatever I can glean from internet pics and drawings and what anybody else can provide. Thanks

[greenman407]

The pictures that you posted of the sail rudder and mods. to the top of the sail are just what I needed for that part of it. Thanks

[greenman407]

I took the props and the Caswell nickel plating kit home on monday night in order to plate the propellors. Using a microwave I heated up some water and the nickel plating solution. The water was used to heat up the prop. After this the plating operation went ahead rather quickly and turned out well. I forgot to take my camera home so I dont have any, on the spot pictures. Just this afterwards shot. I plated the white metal props only in an effort to strengthen them. I will then lightly sand them and paint them with a primer and then a bronze color. They will then be coated with a epoxy clear flat coat that I found the other day at the hobby shop.
11566

[greenman407]

By the way, the instructions said two to five minutes plating time. Always seeking to overdue I left mine in for ten minutes. I wonder what would have happened if I left it in for 20 mins.?

[greenman407]

Note these two pictures. Im trying to establish color for painting purposes. If these pictures are anywhere near accurate then I would say that its almost a dead ringer for Testors "Panzer Grey", which is what I used last time. However Im looking for a upgrade in the quality of paint. Anyone have a comment on the color of this sub?
1158511586

[greenman407]

I mean..............its certainly not black......................right?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

No. Unless you want the bleached black of an old, poorly maintained museum boat left out in the elements!

Black, slightly doped with white, to get a very, very dark gray. That's what you want for a scale model of a reasonably well maintained American post-war submarine in SubLant scheme. Actual 'color' is black, but you bleach it out a tad for 'scale effect'.

I have Spoken!

David

[greenman407]

Well then, its looking more and more like "Rustoleums" Charcoal Grey, without the flat coat. Its darker than what I have on there now and it fits the description of Dark, Dark, grey. Yeah, Im still stuck in the rattle can mode.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Jeezus, Mark! How about joining the rest of us in the 21st Century and get a spary-gun/brush! The Paasche H-model is the best of the litter.

David,

[tsenecal]

Dupli-Color DAP1692 Gray Hot Rod General Purpose Sandable Primer

[greenman407]

Yes, I had all that stuff but its not available to me anymore due to my "situation". I will replace all of it in time. However the Paasche H model, is it suitable to paint a large model by adjusting the tip for more flow or does it come with extra tips so that you can do fine work as well as heavy work?

[greenman407]

tsenecal, thats primer though right? I need a final coat.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Yes, I had all that stuff but its not available to me anymore due to my "situation". I will replace all of it in time. However the Paasche H model, is it suitable to paint a large model by adjusting the tip for more flow or does it come with extra tips so that you can do fine work as well as heavy work?

Yes, three different sized tips.

David

[greenman407]

A couple of closeups.
1158811589

[greenman407]

My trigger finger is getting itchy! ONWARD ever Onward! I have been unable to secure a sail drawing for my Albacore so we will make due with good old fashion seat of the pants calculations and sipherin(as Jethro would say). I have a drawing on my computer so I measured overall length of the hull and sail and converted the sails length(on screen) to the hulls length(on screen) as a percentage and converted it to a measurement using the Subtek Albacores hull length as a reference. The drawing must be off because it would make the sail too long. So , since "The One Who Must Not Be Named" is so fastidiously accurate with his creations Ill use his picture of his sail as a visual aid in further progress.
1167911680 If you compare his modified sail to mine I think that you can just make out that the top of his sail has less slope than my unmodified sail. Therefore Im going to build up the top of my sail with some JB weld first to reduce the slope and then some easy sand on top of that to recreate the bump. Then when the top appears satisfactory we will cut off the back of the sail and add a rudder that I will make out of sheet plastic.

[greenman407]

To add to the difficulty, I cant get the sail to detach from the hull.CA is good stuff and when it bites.......it bites. Since I dont want to mess it up ill do all the mods with it still attached. pray for me.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

CA fractures readily with shock, particularly along the shear plane.

Put a block of wood to one side of the sail. Get a three-pound hammer, smack the side of the block (after first yelling out, "Fooooorrrrrrre!"). Your sail will part right at the glue interface point(s).

If this does not work ...

... what's it to me? Ain't my model.

David

[greenman407]

Any load applied also bends the deck severily as well. Its OK. Itll work out. Work has already begun.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

pussy!.......

[greenman407]

Says he who has every tool and jig known to man to build anything! I must tread lightly with my builds.

[greenman407]

Friday night , this was the state of affairs with the Albacore. I abraided the top of the sail and applied masking tape to make a sort of dam. I made it taller than I needed to give me extra to cut down to the shape I needed. I had forgotten that I had this 2 part liquid epoxy when I stated earlier that I was going to use JB Weld. That stuff is too thick.
1179811799118001180111802

[greenman407]

Once Ive got it shaped close to the pictures dimensions Ill cut off the back of the sail and start making my sail rudder. The hobbie store didn't have any sheet plastic so ill take some old stuff and using plastic weld(cohesive) ill build up some pieces thick enough and then taper it down. Its a work in progress.

[greenman407]

Ok , borrowing these pics of Daves....................OH!...Sorry ,He who must not be named.........pics im going to enlarge and put them up here. Thats what ill be trying to reproduce.
1181111812

[greenman407]

If you take the bottom picture and hit and hold control and scroll...reduce to 50%. Thats the size of my sail.

[greenman407]

Let me introduce you to the best thing since sliced bread. Its a Dremel Multi-Max MM20. It comes with a host of attachments for cutting wood , metal, drywall and more. It even has a attachment for sanding. Works great! It doesnt melt plastic as your cutting and unlike a cutting wheel , you can cut all the way to the bottom without cutting into adjacent material. Why am I showing you this??? Because Im going to use it on the sail.
1182111822

[greenman407]

Now, let me show you a scary picture! I warn you, its not for the faint of heart!

[greenman407]

11823 Yep, Im going to use a power tool on my plastic submarine. Dont worry, its variable speed.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Now, THAT is slicker than snot, Mark!

Like the guy said in the Independance Day movie, "I gotta get me one of these!"

David

[greenman407]

Yes and just an item of note. Your work needs to be well restrained, as this thing works by vibrating minutely back and forth to do the cutting. If your work is free to vibrate along with the blade, no cutting will take place. It makes sense.

[greenman407]

Its time for major surgery! Using a pencil I marked out the shape of the back of the sail minus the rudder and started cutting.
118461184711848

[greenman407]

And then an unintended consequence. The vibration of the cuts vibrated the sail right off the hull. Thats Ok, thats what we wanted initially anyway. So we continued the cuts with the sail propped up on the desk.
118491185011851

[greenman407]

As you can see it cuts cleanly with no melting. If you have any sence of whats level and can follow a line, youll do ok.

[greenman407]

Cutting plastic, as you know, with a standard cutoff wheel takes a lot of power(unless you do it a little ata time)and melts the plastic and tends to bind. Well, try this diamond blade made by Dremel. Its thinner and cuts smoother. Try it! Whadaya think I'm a Dremel salesman?!
11889
Ok, now on to the rudder. I'm laminating 4 sheets of 3/32" plastic together using plastic weld cohesive. The dimensions for the rudder is 1" x 2 and 7/8". Four pieces at 3/32" equals 3/8" thick. Here you can see heavy weights placed on top until a cure is achieved.1189011891

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

You gotta get some of that 40-pound RenShape, Mark. Keep swinging, you're winning this fight.

David

[greenman407]

Gotcha Dave. Shaping the rudder using a belt sander and a pair of Vice grip pliers. Unconventional to be sure but its my way.
11893

[greenman407]

Guys, I need some pictures or drawings or a link or something about the masts. I have very little info. HELP!!!The Titanic

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Me too, Mark. I got noth'n

David

[Subculture]

I guess this is obvious, but have you contacted the Albacore museum to see if they can help you out?

[greenman407]

Well now, thats a thought. I have their book and every picture that I can find on the net but maybe a phone call or email to them might bear fruit.

[greenman407]

I talked to the head guy there today quite by accident. They are closed until Feb 23. He just happened to walk in and the phone was ringing. He said that he was going to work on sending me something. We will see. In the meantime I found more pictures.
11997119961199511994119991199811993

[greenman407]

In the first picture taken from the tugboat, the information coming back was that the Albacores hull was so efficient that it kept almost running over the tug as they moved toward her final resting place. In the second and forth pictures you can clearly see the sail rudder is hard to port

[greenman407]

12000120011200212003120041200512006

[greenman407]

12008120091201012011120121201312014

[greenman407]

120151201612017

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Oh ... Man! You've outdone yourself, Mark. These are beautiful!

David

[greenman407]

Thanks Dave! More to come today with a few of them specific to the masts.

[greenman407]

12025120261202712028120291203012031

[greenman407]

12032120331203412035120361203712038

[greenman407]

In the bottom picture you can make out the anchor door as well as various bumps and bruises.

[greenman407]

Work continues on the sail and its rudder. At the same time I elected to get some paint on the props. As you recall, I Nickel plated the props for the purpose of adding strength. My next step was to sand them down with 400 paper and shoot them with automotive grey primer and then a Bronze color. Its drying as we speak. To top it off Im coating it after that with a epoxy clear flat. Ill post pictures when the paint has dried.

[greenman407]

Heres some " under construction" shots, just to let you guys know that Im not sloughing off. Next, the periscope and masts and bridge doors.
122211222212223

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Nice work, Mark. Keep plugging away, pal.

David

[trout]

Mark,
I think those props came out real nice! They have a solid look to them and i like your technique to get them to that point.
Peace,
Tom

[greenman407]

Just recieved this from John Maier at Albacore park. It helps a little bit with the Mast problem. Ill keep at him for more.
12291

[greenman407]

Also, the props are going to be sprayed with this. Its a Epoxy flat clear thats waterproff and fuel proff. Hopefully it will seal and encapsulate and make the props durable without any paint chipping over time.
12292

[greenman407]

The sail rudder also has to be finished and mounted to the sail. Then comes the "Bump". The bump on top of the sail will be the next big item.

[Subculture]

There are two ways to near enough eliminate chipping on painted metal surfaces.

1. Prime the bare metal primers with an etch primer. You can get this in an aerosol if you don't have a spray gun or air brush, and in single or twin pack formulations. Once you apply this, the only way it comes off is if you sand it off. Do use it in a well ventilated space- the stuff is acidic and not at all good for you,

2. Use the ferric chloride pickling trick that Dave uses for white metal and brass parts.

Either method works well, the primer method is easier for larger areas e.g. a brass etched deck.

[greenman407]

Ive never heard of an etch primer before. Maybe they dont call it that over here.

[greenman407]

I borrowed this Idea from "He who can not be blamed".............I mean named. To help form the bump and locate it I cut from thin sheet plastic this 1/4" by 1&1/4" piece and CAed it to the proper location. Then using filler Ill contour and smooth and shape. First Ill shape the plastic, then Ill put the Goop on.
12301

[Subculture]

Ive never heard of an etch primer before. Maybe they dont call it that over here.

Well to give it the full name, self-etching primer. Looks like it gets the same name to me, although the brands are different, I use Upol brand, which I don't think you can get over there. They're all much of a muchness though.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=etching+primer&_sacat=See-All-Categories

[greenman407]

Excellent. Good for next time.

[greenman407]

I am bitterly disapointed. After spraying the props with the clear flat, now they look milky white. Apparently, too much flat pigment was put in the can. I wouldnt recommend that stuff to anybody. However I cant see myself spending hours trying to sand down these things. Perhaps paint stripper.............We will see.

[greenman407]

Jim Wakefield, who is in charge of maintaining the Albacore emailed me that the Phase 4 configuration only has two masts. The periscope and a radar mast. He also said that the messenger buoys on phase 4 are painted black to match the hull. Good info.

[Subculture]

I cant see myself spending hours trying to sand down these things. Perhaps paint stripper.............We will see.

Would acetone work on an epoxy coating? Would certainly work on a cellulose lacquer, tip a bit of aceone into a jam jar and plop them in there for half an hour. Worth a try surely.

[greenman407]

Im just wondering if the paint stripper would harm the white metal that the props are made of?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I am bitterly disapointed. After spraying the props with the clear flat, now they look milky white. Apparently, too much flat pigment was put in the can. I wouldnt recommend that stuff to anybody. However I cant see myself spending hours trying to sand down these things. Perhaps paint stripper.............We will see.

That might be paint 'blushing', consiquence of spray painting in a very humid environment. Was it raining when you applied the epoxy clear over-coat? If so, bake the props at about 120-degrees for a day or two and you might save the situation.

David

[greenman407]

Yes it was raining a little that day. Do you think that the white metal props would be damaged by paint stripper?

[greenman407]

I managed to get some filler on the sail and rough cut some doors for the bridge. First I took some thin sheet plastic and rolled it around a pipe nipple to acheive some curvature.
12341123381234012339

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Noooooo!

That stuff will spring back on a hot day. What's wrong with you?!.....

Heat/vacuform those doors damit.

David

[greenman407]

OH here we go again! Will you loan me your vacuform machine? Im a model builder on a budget ya know. Maybe I can find a piece of thin wall plastic pipe somewhere and cut them out of it.

[greenman407]

Heres a teeny weeny update. Using this picture of the full size Albacore at the museum im carefully contouring my sail to look as close as I can. Were getting there.
124921249312494

[Subculture]

Looking good. Are you going to make the vents near the top right of the sail, they look like a major feature to me.

[greenman407]

Yes, Im going to make it look as close as I can. If you look at those vents youll see that they are very complicated. I dont know if scribing will be enough. Ill probably have to cut out the full size of the grill area and try to fabricate some bars or louvers or something to insert in there. Notice the picture. On this side it looks like some repair welding has taken place. It also looks like the grill is divided into three seperate areas. Ive got an idea on how to do it. I probably wont try to reproduce the horizontal bar though. Forgive please.12500

[Subculture]

Very tricky piece to make with those aerofoiled blades. However it looks like if you made a mould, you would only need to construct one third of the vent, as it repeats itself, and for the other side of the sail, you would only need to flip it 180 degrees.

[greenman407]

MAKE A MOLD???!!!!! Oh Man, youve got the wrong guy. I dont have near your patience or ability. No, I plan to cheat, Ill find something to put in there. In the meantime I purchased a large diameter brass tube from the hobby shop. After measuring and marking ,I cut out one of the bridge doors.1250112502

[greenman407]

Continuing to fine tune the shape of the top of the sails "Bump". It has a sharp rise in the middle now properly represented here. The rudder attachment and shape is now the direction of my present efforts.
1265412655

[greenman407]

12656 In this shot you can see the radiused look of the rudders attachment with the sail at the top. So I filled in the cut at the top of my rudder and using a round Dremel cutter I am cutting it out in a rounded fasion.12657 Dont have a picture yet.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

This rudder started out looking like dog-poo, but you're beating this thing into shape, Mark.

Com'on! Finish this thing!

David

[greenman407]

Thanks Dave for keeping a watchful eye this way and that. I dont like dog-poo, especially when I take a lot of upclose shots. Some of the delay is due to going too far with the sanding block or Dremel and then having to go back and re-do it. Also I have to moderate my activities to take care of my own sanity.:biggrin:

[greenman407]

While I am continuing to file and fuss over the rudder and sail, I took the opurtunity to map out the dive brakes and to mark and fill in the limbar holes that are not used on this last version of Albacore.
12670 Also while Im at it, I marked out the large grill work on the sail. Im headed to the hobby store to find some plastic shapes to cut up and modify for the grill elements. Stay Tuned.
12671

[greenman407]

In this picture you can see a flat strip on the port side of the turtleback and extending down almost to the props. I emailed Jim Wakefield who is in charge of maintanance on the museum Albacore. He told me that it is a early cover for a cable to an early form of towed array sonar. He suggested that I leave it off. I am thinking, however, that I should put it on. What do you think?12684

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Unless you know what the extension aft looked like -- employed to fairlead the wire past that mix-master at the ass-end -- leave it off as the Curator suggested. What's wrong with you?! Don't have enough to do with that dorsal rudder?

Oh, picture-boy ... one more thing:

Got any good shots of post war Type-15 periscope heads? Need 'em right now!!!!! For the SKIPJACK job I'm working for Moebius.

David

[greenman407]

Let me take a look.

[greenman407]

Ok Dave, I havent seen anything real good but ill post under "general topics" a file named "Skipjack Class Periscopes"

[greenman407]

OK, heres the latest. This is the present shape of the rudder. A little touch up and itll be ready to mount. Ill drill a hole in the top and mount a 1/16" brass stub shaft and a coresponding hole in the underside of the rudder overhang. Then when I re-CA the sail, ill reattach the bottom of the rudder to the deck. As for the grill work I have cut out the hole and filed it pretty good at this point. Using the displayed plastic extrusions I will fabricate as close as possible the grill work.
1270012701

[greenman407]

If youll notice in these two pictures, there appears to be a thin frame around the grill, perhaps of thin sheet metal, painted over several times. Im thinking of using this paper thin plastic sheet that I have acquired to try to reproduce it. After CAing it in place ,I can use a sanding block to go over it and subdue it a little more. If it doesnt work out, then ill sand it completely off.
1270212703

[greenman407]

OH........and by the way.............the dishing that you see in between frames on the sail sides.........well........I wont be trying to reproduce that. LOL! :biggrin:

[ManOwaR]

That'd be a ton of work for sure...Awhile back Dave posted and article showing how he painted to get that very affect. I'm pretty sure it was a Skipjack if I remember correctly. What I can confirm, however is that is looked simply fantastic and achieved the desired effect. Maybe worth a try for sure...I'll see if I can find that report

Joel

[greenman407]

Thanks Joel. In these two pictures you will see the Dive Brakes and my attempts at locating them with pencil, to be followed by etching with a scribe. There were ten of the radial Dive Brakes. They go all the way around.
127041270512706
Also of note is that they open forward, which surprises me( no wonder they didnt work). And the demarcation between them on the upper area of the hull was exactly inline with the rectangular limbar holes.

[greenman407]

To reproduce the grill Im using these small pieces of plastic shapes and rounding the edges and CAing them in place. What can I tell you. Its a start.
127201272112722 Once we get them all in place and touch them up, I think itll be pretty good. As for right now..................patience................one piece at a time. The pieces are so tiny that manipulating them and getting them cut, sanded and in place is difficult.

[greenman407]

Just after I posted this I realized that I had used the starboard side picture when I was working on the port side. Its got to come back out and be reassembled with the large flat louver starting from the rear on the port side. Glad I caught it before I got any farther.

[greenman407]

There...........thats better.
12723

[greenman407]

Its funny. As you are trying very carefully to maintain the uniform distance between louver to louver. As you apply the CA in very small amounts, capillary action causes the louvers to be irresistably drawn together, spoiling your positioning.Give him a soapbox!

[Subculture]

Could you hold them place with blu tack or plasticene/clay?

[greenman407]

Subculture, it was only a matter of time. To Quote the Outlaw "Josie Wales"(Clint Eastwood): "You gotta know your limitations" Well this is the best I can do. After some slight sanding and some paint I think all the imperfections will fill and itll look Ok. Now, on to the otherside, a reverse of this.
12724

[greenman407]

DONT SAY IT DAVE, I know , I know.....dog-poo

[greenman407]

I cut out these two vent frames out of paper thin sheet plastic. After they were cut out and placed into position, they seem like they are still too thick. I wonder If I should just scribe them in instead.12778

[Subculture]

Couldn't you use the old mask and high build primer trick to get that plate outline?

[greenman407]

Thats an Idea!

[greenman407]

I was drilling the hole in the top of the rudder for mounting purposes and disaster struck. The carefully built up area of filler broke lose and my rudder split partially.Give him a soapbox! As I am starring at it in disbelief. it suddenly occurs to me that its easily fixed, just a little delay. Therefore I uttered no BAD WORDS. Believe it or not, its coming along. I applied filler to the holes in the other side of the hull as was already mentioned and I started work on the Periscope.

[greenman407]

Here is the periscope that I am copying.
1278812789

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

This might help you, Mark. All your good work printing shots of the attack and search periscopes has bore fruit. I prepared these plans of the #1 and #2 scopes used on cold-war ear American submarines. Most of them being of the type-2 and type-18 varienty. Clearly that's a type-18 you show atop the ALBACORE's sail. Weither that was origional equipment or a retrofit, I don't know -- being a non-combatant, I don't think they ever bothered with a type-2 attack type scope. What say you, Mark?

I've shown some shop-shots showing the old way of drafting. You know .... with pencil, straight-edge, pens, french-curves and a bit of math. The circular items illustrated are typical arrangements for boats employing the S5W steam plant (note the use of screening material as an inking stencil). All this work for Moebius -- tightening up the detailing for the upcoming release of their 1/72 SKIPJACK. This work based on shortcoming revealed in the first test-shot -- the drawings and narrative sent to the manufacturer to guide them as to what corrections, additions and deletions have to be made. A second test-shot -- which should be in hand in a few weeks -- will confirm that the changes have occured, generating the go-ahead for kit production. The kits should be out by the middle of the year!

David

12793


12794



127921279112790

[Subculture]

Regarding filler, if you want a part that has superior strength, e.g. something that has to be drilled etc. then I really recommend using epoxy filler as it's a MUCH stronger.

[greenman407]

Thanks Dave, thats beautiful. Subculture, yes you are right. I didnt put enough thought into it ahead of time. But, Ill get past it, the lack of thought , that is.

[greenman407]

Dave, Thanks for those beautiful drawings. They showed me that the little stub antenna on top was actually part of the periscope and that I should try to put it on. I notched the back at the top to recieve it. Itll be fragile but im going to do it. Heres a update picture. Since the tube tapers Im going to acomplish that with filler and the ring will also be blended in with filler. Im going to purchase some small drill bits to try to drill the face of the scope to represent the lenses. After drilling Ill use the smallest bit that I have for the Dremel to elongate the holes.
12800

[greenman407]

Here I am using 1/8" Brass tube and 3/32" brass solid round. I am also going to make a radar mast. Do you have anything on that Dave???

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

All American radar antennas look pretty much the same starting with the THRESHER class -- when they dropped the parabolic reflector SJ type and went with the bar-looking antenna. Im pretty sure ALBACORE had the later type, Mark.

And good engineering on that type-18 scope head. Not bad work for a white boy.

David

[Scott T]

Here is an idea for making the lense on the shaft you already have without having to
machine in the lense area. Take some clear plastic; like the kind things you buy at the
store are packaged in; and cut two rectangle shapes of the size of lense bezel. Take the
first rectangle and paint one side of the lense surface a color to represent the lense glass.
Glue the painted side down on the scope shaft. Take the second rectangle and punch a hole
through it the shape of the lense opening. Paint the punched piece the gray color of the scope.
Glue it over the clear lense piece making the lense bezel.
The color on the first rectangle should appear throught the clear plastic and look like glass. The
second rectangle should form the recess look of the lense bezel.

For the small antenna try gluing on a piece of insulated cooper wire (phone wire) as it is bendable
and won't break but is stiff enough to hold its shape.

Scott T


edit add pictures to show layering of pieces to represent scope lense
Pictures from http://www.nautilussubmarine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2097&sid=302d13915c9bab37fce39ae03116330e
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t63/BungalowFilms/20K/CRW_3233.jpg
http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t63/BungalowFilms/20K/CRW_3234.jpg

[greenman407]

Scott T, Thanks for the suggestions as they sound like they would work well. However, this periscope is so small I have to wear magnifiers to work on it(our secret). If I have trouble with machining its face, Ill try glueing on a piece of plastic to represent the lens shape but dispence with the idea of making it look clear.

[greenman407]

Here are some glimpses of the radar mast. You have to look close to see it.12801128021280312804

[greenman407]

Heres some recent pictures that I have acquired.
12819128201282112822128231282412820

[greenman407]

Here are some pictures of pictures, if you know what I mean. Im trying to get a closeup of the radar mast as I cant find a good picture of it. There seems to be several different shapes.
1282712828128291283012831

[greenman407]

If you zoom in on this radar mast I think that its the same one thats on the later Albacore. Its rotating arm appears to be roughly an elongated triangular shape.12891

[greenman407]

Always endeavering to persavear(spelling) this is my latest effort on the scope. A little touchup and she will be ready to go. If I had a lathe maybe it would look better, but since its by hand, forgiveness is easier to obtain.1289212893

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Lay off the Clint Eastwood Westerns for a while pal! (Loved that old Indian guy, had some great lines).

Nice work on that scope, by the way. You can reduce the thickness of that range-only radar antenna by about two-thirds -- way too thick. And it's too tall. And transitions from thick to narrow (refer to my drawings). Oh ... and your Momma dresses you funny, too!

Looks like your pressed a drill press into service as a lathe.

I've been looking for stuff on that radar antenna -- like you I'm coming up dry on that too. Still on the lookout. You find and post the neatest stuff, Mark.

David

[greenman407]

I hear you Dave on that "transitions from thick to narrow" I did notice that but I am not sure how I can accomplish that with what I have available. That wire is .030, 1/32". Ill see if they have anything smaller at the hobby store. I dont want it to be so thin that it will fold over too easy but also I dont want a hyperdermic needle sticking out the top of my submarine either. Im toying around making the masts removeable as well. Im going to clean it up a little more, ie: put some filler down in the lens holes that I made and carefully wipe it out to smooth them up. Some more sanding on the taper is also in order. Got any ideas on the color? The shaft im sure will be metalic but Im not sure about the head.

[trout]

Grab some stranded wire, go to Lowes or Home Depot with your caliper and look through the copper wire/cable by the foot section.
I have some fine brass wire if you PM me your address I can drop it in the mail (let me know what size you need).

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Haze-gray from the beginning of the tapper up -- I don't think they every got into the leapord spot thing on the ALBACORE masts and such. And that's a good tip from Tom.

David