Revell Gato 1/72 - Newbie no more Part duex

[trout]

Part two of the build will be placed here. For the first part go to http://forum.sub-driver.com/showthread.php?1652-Newbie-no-more-Building-the-Revell-1-72-Gato
Waiting for some fun stuff to come in from Caswell inc. - Then I can document the electronics in the WTC. I will probably build up the deck/conning tower and misc. deck stuff while I wait. Having it painted - even quickly - makes it seem that much more exciting. This is really a beautiful submarine.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I have over fifteen fully operational r/c submarines in my fleet and I regard the FOXTROT and the GATO as the most attractive of the bunch -- those two, at 1/72 scale are big enough to cut an imposing wake at the lake, but are suitable for most large swimming pools as well. And, boy, do they look neat cruising by at PD!

I've had so much fun with the thing I have yet to give it a proper paint job and weathering.

David

116051160611607116081160911610116111161211613

[trout]

David,
Thank you for showing me your GATO! It helped me understand how you connected the retract to the torque tube.
I do have a question on the push rod to the front plane, do you have any guides or is it one long rod? The same question for the torque tube, how is is connected front to back? I get the cast pieces. How is it quick disconnected. On your photos of your boat I do not see the cast pieces attached to the tube, so how do you guide your torque tube?
On this photo, I know the name of the one piece, torque tube collar, where does it go?

11642
And what are these other two pieces? how and where are they used?

[oztruck]

Trout, Happy new thread. The Gato is a fine looking boat, and 1/72 is THE scale for subs. Big enough to see on/in the pond but still easy to transport. IMO

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

David,
Thank you for showing me your GATO! It helped me understand how you connected the retract to the torque tube.
I do have a question on the push rod to the front plane, do you have any guides or is it one long rod? The same question for the torque tube, how is is connected front to back? I get the cast pieces. How is it quick disconnected. On your photos of your boat I do not see the cast pieces attached to the tube, so how do you guide your torque tube?
On this photo, I know the name of the one piece, torque tube collar, where does it go? And what are these other two pieces? how and where are they used?

Yeah, I thought those pictures might help you.

No guides to the bow plane pushrod, it just sits there, suspended and held in place only by the magnets at each end.

The illustrated SD did not have the required torque tube bearing foundations glued atop it. Sorry about the confusion. The torque tube is supported above the SD by those cast resin bearings, Item S in the below photo.

11644

You can make the torque tube easily disconnected by opening up the top of each torque tube bearing, with just enough material left to make insertion of the torque tube a 'snap-fit' within the bearing holes; the elasticity of the plastic bearings permitting installation/removal of the torque tube without damage.

The torque tube collar fits around the torque tube, against the forward face of the after torque tube bearing -- it prevents aft travel of the torque tube.

The other two items are alternate swing-arm shaft retainers and are blued to the inboard sides of the after hull.

David

[trout]

Thank you. That makes sense. I will hopefully have that done today and documented.

[beeryboats]

Tom, I made the mistake of using the next larger sized aluminum for the torque tube. So as I was trying to drill out the resin support it shattered in my hand. That's when I first tried turning the drill backwards. I go almost all the way through then go at it from the other direction. It works fantastic. But I didn't throw the broken part away. I used the curved part that mounts to the tube as a base and used plastic sheet to make my own guide. I ran the torque tube and push rod for the bow planes through it. It's not all glued up yet as I'm still working on the electronics install. It looks like I have my radio noise settled and can procede with my build.
Jay

[trout]

Jay,
I was unsure how to connect the Dumas coupler to the torque tube, but looking at David's pictures he uses the 1/8" to sleeve between the coupler and torque tube, then it is pinned like the drive shafts. So yesterday, I worked on several things. Worked on the conning tower and the wtc linkages. I wanted to extend the SNORT tube on my Gato (Yes Chris, I agree, 1/72 is the way to go. I have always liked that scale) and looking at the periscope, I thought why not use it for air intake? So let's chase that rabbit.
I drilled out the molded in periscope shaft. Slowly and with a much smaller drill I worked it down the frame.
11672
Then using an Xacto Blade, trimmed the edges and thinned walls.
11673
Slid in the brass tube to see fit and what areas I need to clean up.
11674
11675
11676
The tube coming down will be (yet to be put in stone) connected to the tubing from the pumps by way of a magnetic connector.
All linkages to the planes, retract, and rudder are done. I will get pictures tonight. It was late (early) when I stopped working and in the moment of installing, I did not want to stop to take photos. The biggest pain was the retract rocker arm tube. There was another moment of shame, but fortunately there are no photos.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Slick!

The Modeler whoes Name must not be Mentioned

[oztruck]

Before it is set in stone, think on this. On the i25 I used an old ariel off a toy TX. What I did was find the size tube that looked rite and I used it and the tube that was still in it giving me 2 tubes in total. I then shaped the end of the inner part and filled the very top part with resin, not too much but just enough to block the hole. I then filed an opening into the front edge of the inner tube to let the air in for the snorkel. The outer part of the tube was fixed to the sail top and also where it went under the deck, there it is connected to the hose for the snorkel pump in the WTC. It worked out to be lighter then a brass tube and has the added benefit of being able to extend it an extra 2 1/2 inches. It worked for me.

Cheers Chris

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r286/oztruck/B1%20sub%20build/23.jpg

[trout]

Thanks Chris. I will look into that. I do not have any antenna, but I will look for on and see how I might use that.

I purchased some ball joints at the beginning of this build and in the kit came brass threaded coupler. They weren’t being used. They sat there begging me to use them......I need more sleep. Anyways, I needed some magnetic connectors and I had rare earth magnets (We repair computers and Apple uses magnets in their laptop screen casings). So I tried a variety of ideas.... some I am not proud of, others kinda tickled my fancy (like using a straw, Sculpy clay, threaded coupler, and magnet. I thought the baking process would melt the straw (it did not) and it was really slick). Still most were larger than I wanted. I finally came up with this idea.
Using the good old fashion CA and Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) I attached magnet and threaded coupler together.
11701
Then placed shrink tubing around them. heated one side ant left the other side open. In the open half I placed a couple of drops (or so) of CA and let it set (O.K. - I was not that patient, I found myself lightly dropping some baking soda particles in). Once that set I shrank the open end. It does not close all the way, but if you pinchi it while is is warm it closes in on itself.
11702
Made the second one, making sure to observe north/south attraction.
11703
And to be fun, I made the other blue.
11704
I used these magnetic connectors for my bow plane linkage. I created two sets and on one, I put a ball joint on it. The steel male portion of the ball joint was attached to the bow plane bell-crank and the magnet with female nylon connector was then placed on the ball.
Moving on to the bow plane retract. I discovered a couple of things that anyone building this may hopefully avoid doing as I did. The bar that the rocker goes on, was installed too low, I am going to get more magnets and make up for the distance. And when you install it, make sure your WTC is installed because a slight off angle can make the riser portion interfere with another pushrod. And CERTAINLY do not finalize your gluing process until you checked out alignment. Fortunately, I have CA debonder, which after 1 1/2 hours was able to remove one end to re-align the bar. I do not know what I was thinking (I guess that was the problem, I wasn’t), I know it was early hours when I was working on this portion and I was just so desiring to get it done that there were costly mistakes made.
So much for the confession, The tube that goes across the top to the front bow plane had me stumped because it’s diameter is the same as the Dumas connector. Then David shared one of his pictures and it showed using 1/8” aluminum tube as a sleeve over the tube and Dumas connector. Brilliant and simple. It is similar to the way the propellor shafts were made.
11705
Then I asked David about quick disconnect and he shared about making it snap in. Again brilliant! Taking a round file I filed straight line from the hole to the edge. The file is a smaller diameter than the hole in the torque tube bearings. So once the initial line was ground out, it was a matter of slowly expanding the space wider and wider. Also add a little bump in the slot. Maybe this will help make it clearer:
11706
And here are the ones I modified.
11707
Place sandpaper (rough side up) on the tube and slide the torque tube bearing back and forth to true up the curve of the bearing to match your tube diameter. Then find the locations of were the bearings go. With the torque tube installed to the plane retract in the bow, I began by placing the bearing closest to the aft end and then slid the other bearing until it made contact with the tube. I taped around the bearing to prepare for roughing up the location for affixing.
1170811709
Using 240 grit sandpaper rough up the area.
1171011711
Just to see what it looks like without tape.
11712
Apply a little RTV.
11713
Torque tube installed.
11714

Once everything sets, I will shorten the torque tube and seal it.

[trout]

Using the CA debonder did help in releasing the one side, but it took the paint off too!
11771
Earlier I posted about pulling the wire through the WTC and it is time to connect the battery to the wire. I drilled a hole in the Dean connector to wrap the wires around then slipped shrink tubing over each wire. Then I slipped on a larger diameter shrink tube to keep the two wires from moving much. Using a soldering tip at higher temperature (about 620 degrees Fahrenheit) soldered the wires to the deans connector and after it cooled, trimmed the ends, slid the red and white shrink tube up and used heat to tighten that. Finally slid the blue shrink tube up to keep the wires together.
11772
On the aft end of the WTC wire I matched the ESC end with a Tamiya connector. Put it all together with shrink tube and powered it on. Using a multimeter I wanted to check that all the connectors were good. They are (yeah). Oh wait.... Were am I going to tie in the SNORT (LPB) and the LiPo guard? I was in a hurry that I forgot those....GRRRRR.
I will tackle that later, I have a Sombra Labs receiver and a WFly transmitter to get set up.
11773
Plus this rats nest to get under control.
11774
I am very thankful to Mike for offering the variety and quality equipment that he does. It is a pleasure doing business with you.


p.s. I just fired up the engines briefly... WOW!!! I can’t wait to get this all packed and put in the sub to see the props spin. THIS IS SO COOOOL!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Excellent presentation. Thanks for enlarging the photos for these old eyes. You're suffering from 'GO fever'. Slow down, think your moves through and test before the next step. Looking good!

David,

[trout]

Thank you David! Slow down or drink less coffee.....what am I saying, I’ll slow down.


I wanted to see how it worked with the connectors, so I put it all together (minus SNORT and LiPo) and I now see there are areas that need “refining”.
The first issue is the bow plane push rod or should I saw bow plane noodle.
Sorry for the blurry picture. The area in the circle will show the push rod bow.
1178011781
I can see a couple of things with the bow plane, I need to loosen up the travel and stiffen up the rod.
My sub will probably turn on a dime if turning starboard.
11782
But going to the port not as much. Not because the bell crank is off center because the rudder is sliding in the bell crank.
11783
Here I can push it or slide it to its full throw.
11784
Then there are those front plane retracts. I will unfortunately cut out my current setup and redo it. It will need to be moved up and slightly aft me thinks..... Here is the issue. With the servo full pull,
11785
the bow looks like this.
11786
with the servo full push
11787
this is the full extent of my retract.
11788
I need to figure a way to temp setup to test the full movement.

[beeryboats]

The fore planes are driving me nuts too. I was about to toss the whole project out the window and go back to airplanes. I think I've got the travel I need, but the magnets won't hold onto the bell crank. I can get it to work a couple times then one of the magnets will pop off. The retract mechanism works smooth with no binding, and I've lubed everything with a drop of TriFlow. I'm so close I can taste it, but it just won't work reliably. I need to take a break....

Jay

[beeryboats]

Success! I did not have enough travel either Tom. So I dug into the airplane hardware box and came up with an old servo horn. I bored out the center the same size as my rod and installed a ball end a little closer to the main rod. Then I had to adjust the end point travel on the radio and I seem to have it somewhat reliable and folding almost all the way up. I may redrill the control horn that came with the kit to move the ball inboard. My brain is way too tired to even attempt the auto level and lipo saver. I'll leave that for another night.

Jay

[trout]

Jay,
As far as pulling apart, I may do something like this....
11789
The though is a clip that upside-down U shape would slid over the opposing magnet and prevent pulling apart yet still allow a quick disconnect system.
What do you think?
I thought I responded earlier, but I do not see it. Jay, I was going to test out moving the push rod closer to the pivot point on the bearing. Thank you for sharing! It helps. I still will need to re-do the retract location to get the maximum travel. A template would be helpful for placement.

[beeryboats]

That would work, but I would just glue another pair of magnets right on top of the others. My problem was at the bell crank that rotates on the rod that goes accross the hull above the drive shafts. I got it to work pretty well, but it has to be in the perfect spot and the planes perfectly level to be reliable. And I had to make a new shorter arm for the retract rod. I almost get full travel now. The only other option I could think of was to make the servo arm just as long as you can make it. I may still play around with that as you get better leverage the farther you can get from the center of rotation. Back in the dark ages of RC you had to mess around with servo arm length and control horn length to get you travel limits. Great fun, now we have computor radios with end point adjustments.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I see a lot of problem solving going on out there in SD land. Good work, guys.

David

[trout]

This weekend was a time for tackling issues.
The forward dive planes would not move to the full extent, the push rod would bow. The issue I found was that the ball and nylon socket caused issues and the throw was not enough. The ball and socket seemed to add to the friction and also not allow a straight transfer of power. The first thing I did was remove the ball and socket connector and replace it with a Z bend pushrod. I also drilled a 1/16” hole closer to the dive plane shafts. (if you look carefully you might see the Z bend installed above the original hole. This one change removed most of the loss of power to the dive planes. I still have some magnet shifting and will create a holder to help prevent that (crayon drawing in prior post).
11831
I got the dive plane to open and retract. Moving the retract rocker arm up and slightly back helped get it close. I also used a longer arm on the servo and that seemed to make the difference. No photos of that yet...it is ugly. I used the slotted disk to hold the bar in place.
The rudder issue is solved. I made the flat area on the shaft even more flat and deeper so the set screw on the bell crank can get a firm hold. Reinstalled and tightened it up. Solved.
11832
I removed the pins from the Tamiya and added wires to branch out. These wires will supply the power for the SNORT pumps and LiPo Guard. It was not difficult to back them out, with a pair of tweezers I squeezed the tabs that spring out to keep it from pulling out. Soldered the wires to attach the other devices and reinstalled. Metered the connection to verify that I was getting power to the new connections and I was. Issue solved.
11833


One new issue. David, on the servo that comes with the WTC, I noticed it is not connected to the push rod. I had not noticed it before and I cannot seem to get it reconnected. What do I need to do?


Question. On one of your Cabal reports, and using the larger pump (PSC) (it may have been with a SUB ES2) you recommend cutting the red wire so power can not be fed back to the receiver. Does that need to be done with the mini pump with controller (MPC)? (As I think about this I would think not...., but I just have to make sure)

[trout]

Here is a photo of the additional connections that were added to the Tamiya connection. The wires that I added went to bullet connectors, then to the devices. The thinking is, if in the future I want to change or add equipment, it would be easier to work from the bullet connection.
11853
Here is a shame picture. This is the slotted disk being used to pin the tube to the outside of the disk and the end of the slot. Before I had the tube free moving, but with the modification it does not. I made the opening on the rocker so it moves relatively easy. Every once in a while when I am opening or closing the bow planes, the magnet will separate and not completely close the planes. It needs just a smidgen of pull.... maybe a small rubber band? I do not know, just will have to ponder it more.
11854
I went ahead and tackled the pushrod that slipped off of the control arm on the servo. I was envisioning taking the tube apart and I really was not feeling like getting that intimate with my WTC.
I had a long tweezer that was used for pickling metal and it was mostly long enough. Then there was the screw driver.....a little blue tape and two drivers later I had something that would work.
1185511856
It came out easier than I thought.
11857
Getting the servo back on the pushrod was a test in patience. Maybe a dozen or two tries, I got it on the rod. Now it was time to get the holder on. I placed a little CA on each screw while it was placed in the holder (learned from the video when placing the bell crank on the rudder - get the video [blink quickly and this will be a subliminal message]).
For the life of me I could not get it to line up or it would flip over. All I needed to do is get one screw started. Then it came to me......I blue taped the screw driver to the brass holder and carefully guided it to one hole. Task completed. Moved to second hole and before it was snug I adjusted the servo to be level to the rectangle recess that the arm can move into.
11858
Tested the fix and it worked.
Now to work on the magnet holder........
David, I can not find the information about cutting the power line to the receiver for the pump, so unless you remember, I will just have to call it a bad dream.

[chulla]

Trout, I love that sub lol almost wrote ship. I can't wait till I get to that stage and build my own Gato. The question I have is from what im learning and I saw did u glue the two hulls together when u assembled it then started cutting it apart from there?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I don't get that last part, Trout. Re-word it, please. And good problem-solving on that servo work within the tight confines of the cylinder. What necessitated all that anyway?

David

[trout]

@chulla - Take a look here http://forum.sub-driver.com/showthread.php?1652-Newbie-no-more-Building-the-Revell-1-72-Gato This shows the beginning of my build. If you are intending to build the 1/72 Gato from Revell buy the Gato D&E DVD - 5 DVD Set from http://www.caswellplating.com/models/gato.html
I (http://www.caswellplating.com/models/gato.html)t will save you many headaches, not all headaches......... The simple answer is yes, glue then cut.

@David If you mean about cutting the power wire to the receiver, I was referring to a prior post "Question. On one of your Cabal reports, and using the larger pump (PSC) (it may have been with a SUB ES2) you recommend cutting the red wire so power can not be fed back to the receiver. Does that need to be done with the mini pump with controller (MPC)? (As I think about this I would think not...., but I just have to make sure)" or do you mean reword the servo issue and why I needed it taken out? Earlier post I mentioned that I found the pushrod not connected to the arm of the servo. I had not noticed it earlier, but I did not play with it to notice it - so I am not sure what or why it was off the arm. Please let me know what I was clear as mud about and I will be glad to rework it!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

@chulla - Take a look here http://forum.sub-driver.com/showthread.php?1652-Newbie-no-more-Building-the-Revell-1-72-Gato This shows the beginning of my build. If you are intending to build the 1/72 Gato from Revell buy the Gato D&E DVD - 5 DVD Set from http://www.caswellplating.com/models/gato.html
I (http://www.caswellplating.com/models/gato.html)t will save you many headaches, not all headaches......... The simple answer is yes, glue then cut.

@David If you mean about cutting the power wire to the receiver, I was referring to a prior post "Question. On one of your Cabal reports, and using the larger pump (PSC) (it may have been with a SUB ES2) you recommend cutting the red wire so power can not be fed back to the receiver. Does that need to be done with the mini pump with controller (MPC)? (As I think about this I would think not...., but I just have to make sure)" or do you mean reword the servo issue and why I needed it taken out? Earlier post I mentioned that I found the pushrod not connected to the arm of the servo. I had not noticed it earlier, but I did not play with it to notice it - so I am not sure what or why it was off the arm. Please let me know what I was clear as mud about and I will be glad to rework it!

That's right, you don't need to take the red 'hot' wire out of the loop with Kevin's little MPC because it is not feeding voltage back to the receiver bus -- no BEC provide. Lin's SUB ES2, on the other hand has a BEC and that's why the hot wire was removed in that set-up. Good question. Now know the reason why.

Wow, the pushrod off the ballast servo bell-crank, that's a first, How did I miss that!? Anyway, your getting in there with modified hand-tools was the way to achieve the fix, pretty much how I do it. You'll find a long handled set of hemostats a good investment. I got mine from Harbor Freight.

[trout]

David, I pray you never quit this business or get so fed up or burned out that you say "That's it, I am done with this". I really enjoy learning from you. Last night I was going through the Cabal reports you have written and gleaned even more information. I was re-reading the Kilo reports (long version) - liked the weathering info! The BEC on the SUB ES2 connects the dots for me, thank you. Thank you for your passion and wisdom.

[trout]

Wiring and stuffing a sausage.... they both apply to the Gato.
11901
Last night I added the ADF2 and the LiPo to the madness and began attaching components to the engine room with zip ties and velcro.
The ESC (Electronic Speed Controller) was installed first. I slapped some velcro on it and set it up, but then I thought......I bet there is some heat generated by the ESC, maybe I won’t velcro it, but use a zip tie instead.
11902
Added the LiPo Guard to the port side of the engine room using sticky velcro (has adhesive backing). Began running servo cables from the port side servos to the Sombra Labs receiver. In an effort to reduce the length I twisted the servo cables and thought that this might help reduce interference (nothing scientific to back that up it probably is as good as the aluminum hat I wear to prevent cosmic signals from controlling my brain - joking of course). It is interesting the weaving and testing to make sure there is no binding with the servos or the pushrods.
11903
Moving to the starboard side the ADF2 is mounted with a piece of velcro to the servos. Again, tried to weave the wires in such a way as to not cause binding.
11904
Then the transmitter is on the top between the servos. I did this because David recommended to someone not to put it below just in case water leaked in. You do not want it fried. Well I do not want to fry any of my electronics and so looking at other installs moved things higher up. The only thing that will be low are the mini pumps.
11905
As a side note, before I went to bed, I checked to make sure it fit in the tube with this configuration (it did!) and tested servos. I am open to suggestions or if you have pictures that will help me make this nice and clean, I would love to see them.

[trout]

Did a water displacement test. Without overdoing the exactness (measuring the compressed air tank, tube running from engine room to battery compartment, float, and misc items) I estimate about 45 cubic inches of volume or .75 of a liter (.198 of a gallon) in the ballast tank.
My first test was one pump to see how long it would take to empty if I inverted it in a pot. It took about 220 seconds to empty over 3/4 of a gallon. The jug lifted itself up and caused the tube to come out. So my output was close to a liter a minute.
Second test was two pumps connected to a single intake. I did not have a T or Y air fittings. so I made one.
1197511976
Connected both pumps to the fitting on the intake and ran tubing from the output to the opening of the inverted milk carton and terminated it with a piece of 1/8” brass tubing matching the SNORT tubing.
1197711978
Then started up the pumps. It cut the time in half and maybe even slightly better than half. It was hard to say for sure because like the first experiment the jug moved (even while holding it) and caused one output to come out.
So, the conclusion is I think the additional pump will help without requiring a duplicate air intake and output. I suspect that if I minimize the silicon tubing and maximize the use of brass, I may get a performance boost (because the brass tubing has smaller walls and will allow a higher volume through and the brass is less likely to get pinched or collapse by pressure), but this is conjecture.
Also I went ahead and cut out the area in the sail to allow the brass tube to pass through. There are also some holes drilled on the inside of the bridge baffle allow air out.
1197911980
I am thinking lights would be cool. Hmmmm.....I will put some thought to that.

[trout]

Been a little slow posting. My son was in a pinewood derby and I had to assist in the construction. (we think he placed in the top 3 - will not know until next month at the ceremony)
I am continuing to build the conning tower. Sometimes when building a model I get this silly little voice.....oooh try this. And of course I have to obey. The rear periscope shaft had to be modified. Learning about drilling exact holes like I did on the rudder,
[Here is an example:]
12178
I somehow thought I could drill a 1/8” hole through rear periscope shaft to add a brass riser to it (I went with brass although an excellent suggestion for using an antenna was offered - I do not have any spare or old ones around).
So carefully and in tiny bits I was able to complete the drilling.
12179
12180
The joys in small accomplishments. The brass tube did not slide in nice and easy. I had to take a 1/8" brass tube and file/cut teeth into the end and I roughed up the outside with 120 grit sandpaper. Then spinning the rod as it went through helped bore out the path and open it up enough to allow the inserting of the tube.
Now, the real reason I did the additional tube. I wanted to add it as an air vent for diving, but if my testing of the SNORT system did not accurately measure air demands, I was piped and ready. I wonder if I can drill out the plastic periscope top?


Any help would be appreciated on running lights.
What running lights go on a WWII submarine? I get the Port (Red) and Starboard (Green). The instructions have one up on the front radar mast, is that a white light? There is one on the bow, white? and aft end, white also? any other lights?

[trout]

Went to do the air tightness test prior to see if there were any leaks. Removed the valve center. Bought a 3’ length of vinyl tubing. Heated the end over an open flame (stove) just enough to get it soft. Then pushed it up onto the end of the needle nose pliers to stretch it. I did this a couple of times until it fit on the valve threading.
12285
Partially filled the bath tub and placed the WTC in. Blew gently into the vinyl tube and........
1228612287
got bubbles. That is not good. It is coming out of the rudder push rod bearing. It needs to be replaced and I might as well do the difficult bearing that seems to get tighter after it sits awhile.
What is the best practices to remove the old bearing? Drill it out?
Then placing it back in, the original looks like a clearer silicon then the RTV, thoughts?
Thank you!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

First off, it's not a bearing it's a 1/16" pushrod seal. Second, the bubbles (good methodology finding the leak, by the way): are they originating around the seal body, or around the 1/16" pushrod itself?

Re-test with an eye to finding where the leak is. Is the leak around the union where the seal body mates with the motor bulkhead, or is the leak originating at the encapsulated O-ring that seats around the brass pushrod?

If the leak is around the seal body then the fix is easy: Put some RTV around the seal-motor bulkhead union and push it in with a finger as you take a suction on that hose. The partial vacuum you create within the SD will pull the RTV into the openings between seal and motor bulkhead that previously leaked air during your test.

If the leak is at the seals O-ring. You're screwed. Throw everything in the trash and take up knitting. Hell .... I got your money. It's over. Let that be a lesson to you! ...

... Naw, just kidding. Here's how to replace the pushrod seal:

The RTV securing the seal within the hole it fits within (the motor bulkhead) is relatively weak. You don't even have to take the pushrod out (in fact, I wish you wouldn't). Pull the motor bulkhead out of the cylinder enough to push an 1/8" metal rod onto the forward face of the offending seal, and push it aft. The bad seal will pop out of the motor bulkhead with little drama. You previously removed the magnetic coupler so you can slide the bum seal off the after end of the pushrod.

Take your replacement pushrod sea; slide it onto the after end of the pushrod; and, before you push it into its hole, run a bead of RTV around its base -- taking care not to get any of the goo onto the forward face -- we don't want RTV to come into contact with the pushrod!

Push the replacement seal into position and let things cure out a few hours. Re-test for watertight integrity.

You need parts, give me a jingle and I'll get them out Monday.

Onward!

David

[trout]

David,
I stand corrected....actually I have no idea why I have called it a bearing. LOL, As far as taking up knitting? I have come to far to let a little seal stop me now. The leak is from the o-ring. It was hard to tell at first whether it was the pushrod seal or the SNORT tube (they are so close together). Until I was able to control my breath to slow it down to one bubble as needed. That is when I could see where exactly it was coming from. The good part about this is I am learning something new! and I am one step closer to trimming her up.
You like my technique? I learned that from some guy named David Merriman, heard of him?

Side note, How much of the conning tower and do-dads do you put on. What I mean is, should I have all the deck (guns, railing, etc) and tower completed (not detailed) for trimming or the small difference can be adjusted later?

Also, what is in the conning tower inside where the open doors are?
12288
sorry the picture is blurry, but I wanted to quickly post this.

[Reckless]

if I remember correctly (and I'm sure someone will correct me with a rolled newspaper if I am wrong) .. theres nothing in there, except access to the top of the conning tower and the main hatch down into the sub.

the "doors" you see on kits was added after the war to lock the sub up while it was displayed to the public... as the kits were modeled after I don't remember which sub (sorry! I should know this .. LOL) is on a full land display

[trout]

Reckless,
Thank you. The model is based off of the USS Cobia
12289
You can see the broom that is on top, just like the model.
Peace,
Tom

[Reckless]

sonar sweep? ...

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

You step through that opening and you have, to the left, a huge concave circular 'dish'. That's the after end of the conning tower proper (cylindrical, pressure proof structure where the boat is conned while submerged). To the left are the forward ends of those long gun/ammo storage lockers you see projecting out the after end of the fairing. Above, a lot of truss work under the cigarette deck -- re-enforcing members to harden the gun platform. In the center of the fairing, to the right of the door, is the big main-induction valve (kinda looks like the upper end of a dance-club 'smoke eater'). And within the superstructure fairing itself you'll will see stringers and frames. Very busy looking in there. And smelly.

David

[trout]

sonar sweep? ...
LOL, no clean sweep - successful mission
I have read that it is originally from Dutch Admiral Maarten Tromp, who legend held, placed a broom at the masthead to show he had swept the sea clean of the foe--the English in his case. There is an old song called "The Admiral's Broom."

Dave any pictures in your archives? Mark you got anything??

I again want to thank everyone for all your help.....It is getting close to trimming time and I can feel the excitement building. For all that are taking on the Revell Gato keep plugging at it! It is worth the challenges!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

David,
I stand corrected....actually I have no idea why I have called it a bearing. LOL, As far as taking up knitting? I have come to far to let a little seal stop me now. The leak is from the o-ring. It was hard to tell at first whether it was the pushrod seal or the SNORT tube (they are so close together). Until I was able to control my breath to slow it down to one bubble as needed. That is when I could see where exactly it was coming from. The good part about this is I am learning something new! and I am one step closer to trimming her up.
You like my technique? I learned that from some guy named David Merriman, heard of him?

Side note, How much of the conning tower and do-dads do you put on. What I mean is, should I have all the deck (guns, railing, etc) and tower completed (not detailed) for trimming or the small difference can be adjusted later?

Also, what is in the conning tower inside where the open doors are?
12288
sorry the picture is blurry, but I wanted to quickly post this.

For your initial sea trials -- where you will establish submerged trim, surfaced trim, work out the many bugs that reveal themselves only after all the sub-assemblies have been integrated into the whole -- you'll put it in the water with only the basic hull, control surfaces, running gear, retract mechanism, and sail assembled and working. That's it.

No stanchions, capstans, railings, cleats, no guns, no antenna, no deck fittings. Nothings installed that's going to get knocked off by your fat inexperienced fingers. During sea trials (and you will be tried!) you will be handling that model a great deal: lifting the deck and putting it back down, again, and again, and again ..... You will be tweaking the linkages, adjusting the blow/vent settings, moving weight and foam around. AND learning how to drive this beast.

All this activity puts the physical condition of your pretty model submarine at great risk. Don't even paint it till your done with sea trials.

Make it pretty only after you got it running reliably, you master how to drive the thing, and you naturally stop calling your model submarine a screaming *****, and instead start addressing it as, 'she'. At that point, you put all the do-dad's on and give it, ah ... 'her', a proper paint job.

David,

[Reckless]

For your initial sea trials -- where you will establish submerged trim, surfaced trim, work out the many bugs that reveal themselves only after all the sub-assemblies have been integrated into the whole -- you'll put it in the water with only the basic hull, control surfaces, running gear, retract mechanism, and sail assembled and working. That's it.

No stanchions, capstans, railings, cleats, no guns, no antenna, no deck fittings. Nothings installed that's going to get knocked off by your fat inexperienced fingers. During sea trials (and you will be tried!) you will be handling that model a great deal: lifting the deck and putting it back down, again, and again, and again ..... You will be tweaking the linkages, adjusting the blow/vent settings, moving weight and foam around. AND learning how to drive this beast.

All this activity puts the physical condition of your pretty model submarine at great risk. Don't even paint it till your done with sea trials.

Make it pretty only after you got it running reliably, you master how to drive the thing, and you naturally stop calling your model submarine a screaming *****, and instead start addressing it as, 'she'. At that point, you put all the do-dad's on and give it, ah ... 'her', a proper paint job.

David,

... awwwwwwww... does this mean mines never gonna work cause I got it with all that stuff already on it? :(

[vital.spark]

The answer from experiance is JUST BE CAREFULL!! think and look where you put your hands and what can you bump with the model when moving it! And the answer is, you will shortly become an expert at reattaching broken off bitts and pieces!!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

... awwwwwwww... does this mean mines never gonna work cause I got it with all that stuff already on it? :(

You're screwed!

[trout]

The RTV securing the seal within the hole it fits within (the motor bulkhead) is relatively weak. You don't even have to take the pushrod out (in fact, I wish you wouldn't). Pull the motor bulkhead out of the cylinder enough to push an 1/8" metal rod onto the forward face of the offending seal, and push it aft. The bad seal will pop out of the motor bulkhead with little drama. You previously removed the magnetic coupler so you can slide the bum seal off the after end of the pushrod.

Take your replacement pushrod sea; slide it onto the after end of the pushrod; and, before you push it into its hole, run a bead of RTV around its base -- taking care not to get any of the goo onto the forward face -- we don't want RTV to come into contact with the pushrod!

Push the replacement seal into position and let things cure out a few hours. Re-test for watertight integrity.

You need parts, give me a jingle and I'll get them out Monday.

Onward!

David

Thank you David for the seals.
The replacement of the leaky seal goes as simple as David says.
I pushed the pushrod seal out - surprisingly simple.
I could not slide my old seal off the pushrod because I had a soldered end, but once it was out it was a simple matter to loosen the end off and re-solder it back on
12405
Placed the RTV on the seal outer edge and slipped it into place. Gave it a few hours to set and did the water test. I had to blow a lot harder, but I had bubbles.....dun dun dunnnnnn (for that dramatic touch). The good news is it came from the seals edge (near a bubble in the casting )
12406
and near the motor shaft also from a subsurface bubble.
12407


So for the seal I placed some additional RTV
12408
and same for the Motor shaft area
12409
Once the RTV was placed on the areas I created a negative pressure in the WTC to suck in some of the RTV into the leaks. Let this dry.
My son and I both tested the WTC - NO LEAKS!


Now I will replace the one that is so tight.

[trout]

Today was going to be a day to spend on the sub. I was adjusting the servos and made the decision to wait until after working on the ballast to replace the other pushrod seal. As I was testing the rudder throw when all of a sudden all the servos shuddered like it was cold, then the bow retract servo went bezerk throwing its arm all the way in one direction then the next, finally seizing and jittering. All servos became unresponsive. The ADR-2 did not have any lights on it and the LiPo Guard was blinking green. It looked like radio signal was lost. Looked at the battery on the transmitter it was low, but not crazy low. I restarted everything and no luck on servos response. I went ahead and decided to recharge the batteries. The TX batteries were on the charger and then I put the LiPo on. It would not charge.......it has died!
Mike, you will get a call from me on Friday (payday) for a new battery.
sigh......

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Maybe you fried the ESC's BEC?

David,

[trout]

How? And please tell me how do you prevent that? I guess I won't know until I apply a new power source.

[trout]

Tomorrow I order a new battery. Today, I play with the conning tower and install a floor.
I opened up the deck inside the conning tower to allow air out and it will slightly lighten the above water weight.
12597
With the conning tower being open underneath
12598
and the doors cut out, I did not like how I could see the light coming in from below the deck. At certain angles it is fine it looks satisfactorily dark.
1259912600
So, I built a quick floor from styrene, I traced the outside of the ridge on the deck meant to hold the conning tower. Transferred the pattern to some sheet styrene and did some scribing of lines (not for scale, but effect). Then shot it with a quick coat of black paint.
12601
Putting the conning tower over it, I got the look I was going for. The only light coming in or showing up was from the light coming in from the other door.
12602
Wait, that is not the end of the story. Once I placed the new deck in, I then realized that the ridge built for the conning tower is really high and with the door cut out it stands higher than the threshold. Add a deck and now you are obnoxiously obvious.
12603
So, the only solution that came to mind is cut out the raised ridge and have the floor in the conning tower for strength.
Marked area needing to cut out and verified the placement on the conning tower.
1260412605
Using the deep throat jewelers saw and the wax blade (twisted blade that can cut in any direction) the area marked for removal was excavated.
12606
Checked fit with deck. Added some small pieces of styrene as tabs or stops for the deck so it would set at the right depth. placed deck in and used cohesive glue to attach deck to tabs and conning tower. Once set, filled edges with CA and baking powder.
12607
Now the deck sets lower and is less obnoxious.
1260812609

[trout]

Mike, you can pay your employees because of my major purchase of a battery! LOL So, in a week, I will hopefully see what else may or may not work with the new LiPo.

[Scott T]

Good job on the deck and door mods.

[trout]

Thank you Scott!

[trout]

I saw on another post someone asked "How much weight was added to trim the Revell Gato that is using D&E WTC?" The poster was understanding that there are differences, but wanted a ballpark. I am asking here because I want to know - I am almost there (waiting for battery). So ballpark - knowing there are many variables, how much lead should I have on hand to trim my Gato?

[trout]

O.K. no help on the amount of ballast needed.......is it written somewhere and I missed it?
Please point me in the right direction for any of this.
Looking for tips and suggestions.
What is the best way to attach my antenna to the end cap?
Do I just cut the receiver's antenna then strip the end and fasten that to the nut to the external antenna? That seems to be asking for trouble every time I take the end cap off. The continual movement would fatigue the antenna, yes?
I am worried about cutting my antenna!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Your receiver is an integral part of the motor-bulkhead device foundation -- once installed it, and its antenna will experience no relative motion as you install/remove the motor bulkhead. Cut the receiver antenna short enough to reach the stud, strip, and make it up to the stud with the provided washers and nut. No big deal.

David

[trout]

I get it. Since the receiver (although not really attached) is not going to move.
o.k. How much weight did you put in your gato?
David, thank you for your help.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I'll have to break out my GATO (got to anyway, there's a pool-run this Sunday), examine what I got in there in the way of lead and give you an estimate. Stay tuned.

David

[trout]

Drugged or not, you are the MAN!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

of course I am!

[alad61]

I have been reading and re-reading this thread many times now and I have to say Trout I and impressed beyond words at your build here. I am tossing up between the Gato and the upcoming Skipjack for my next project but this is certainly a persuasive argument to the Gato. Though it does appear more challenging than the Seaview it still appears to be a great kit to do...

[trout]

Alec,
Thank you. Being this is my first sub, I will say it is a challenge, but one sweet looking submarine. I will be getting the Skipjack when it comes out. So, if you are building your first sub..... you will need to decide your stamina level on building. I would think the Skipjack is easier and David may want to jump in here, but the Gato is a real good sub to get stretched and learn new things!
It thrills me and blesses me that you have enjoyed reading me hack my way through this build. If it inspires you to jump in and build, then my joy is doubled. Plus it means more of us at the shoreline and building this hobby up.
Please let me know what you decide to do and keep in touch!
Peace,
Tom

[alad61]

I am seriously stuck on the fence between the gato or skipjack... both are fairly iconic to me. I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures or video of your first sea trials with the gato. As for a first sub the Seaview is cutting my teeth and I agree that the gato would offer more from a modeling perspective but as for for the skipjack being easier my experiance has shown me that an easy model doesn't mean an easy build:o:)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Not build .... ASSEMBLE!

It's a kit, damit. Not a scratch-build. The 'building' was/is being done by a machine, not you or anyone else who rips the clear wrapper off a box-of-parts!

With a kit -- which is what we're talking about here -- we are simple, common, mouth-breathing, moronic kit-assemblers. We are humble Assembly Drones ... not model-builders!

As to the complexity of the SKIPJACK kit: I can assure you, the SKIPJACK will be a much easier assembly job than the GATO.

As a tease, here are some shots of a 1/72 GRP kit I assembled better than a decade ago from a Scale Shipyard kit:

David




12741


12744

[alad61]

Fair enough... "Assembler of kits I am then" ;)

Btw that a nice looking sub & certainly makes the skipjack enticing... but the tipping scales are leaning toward the Gato so Trout I will bookmark your thread as part of my reasearch data.

[trout]

David,

According to Merriam-Webster (not Merriman)

Build
transitive verb
1
: to form by ordering and uniting materials by gradual means into a composite whole : construct (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/construct)

2
: to cause to be constructed

3
: to develop according to a systematic plan, by a definite process, or on a particular base

4
: increase (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/increase), enlarge (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enlarge)



Here are examples used by Merriam-Webster:
Examples of BUILD

The bridge was built in the 1890s.
The planes were built in Germany.
The organization helps build houses for poor families.
A family of birds has built a nest on our roof.
She started building a fire in the fireplace.
He built a model airplane from a kit. (emphasis mine)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Arrrgh!.........

[trout]

alad61, all of us are here to help!

Earlier I mentioned how easy it was to replace the pushrod seal and I wanted to show some of the steps. The seal that I am replacing is the one that is really tight - the rudder pushrod seal.
12749
As David had mentioned, just push the seal out with a spare piece of rod. I had to push from both directions, but it comes loose.
12750
I had soldered my threaded end for the Kli-cons (which I saw a posting by David you could just CA them in place) and needed to remove it.
12751
Put a generous amout of RTV silicon on.
12752
Push the seal in until it is flush or slightly out with the WTC end cap.
12753
Clean up, let it set up, install pushrod, and pressure test your hull.
12754


Now it is time to set up my sub for ballast and trimming. I wanted to be smart and pre-build my ballast so I could add as I needed.
I got some potters clay (the kind they put in a kiln) and built a simple wood frame with the edges at the height, short of the distance, to the bottom of the wtc. Rolled the clay into the frame and laid the ballast pattern on top, Using an xacto knife, cut around the pattern.
12755
Removed all the areas that I wanted filled with lead. Anywhere there is clay, that was an area that water would come in from.
12756
Melted the lead (time to insert disclaimer - lead is know to be dangerous to your health, use at your own risk - I am not recommending you use lead and will not be held liable for any injury or harm to yourself or others or to property damaged by molten lead, handling lead, and usage of lead) If you are worried use BBs or Zinc. Poured the lead into the mold and presto, I have ballast........or DO I?
12757
It de-molded great, but I used a flat bottom mold and my hull is curved. Which if I thought about it first, I should have seen that. The outside edges meet the hull before the center of the ballast keeping it raised too high. I would have to further modify the casting to fit the hull and not inhibit the WTC from mounting properly.


Try number two.......
I laid a strip of clay in the hull pressing it into all the recesses.
Trimmed the edges to keep the mold height right and pushed out all the flood holes. Also cut out channels on each hole to allow a path for water to come in once the ballast is installed.
127581275912760
Then let the clay dry. Hoping it would not stick because if it can go wrong (I seem to attract the go wrong) it will. The clay came out, for the most part O.K. - a couple of narrow pieces broke off.
Then I purchased come craft plaster. This was not like standard plaster of paris, soft and gouges easily, it was more like the harder plaster used in special effects (a dental plaster or Die Plaster) or in jewelry (casting investment). Mixed the batch a little thicker and ladled it into the mold frame, then I placed the hardened clay pieces in. Made sure that they were oriented the correct way (keel facing down). Let it set until it firmed up. Using a putty knife carefully leveled everything to the top of the mold frame.
12761
I had some left over plaster and two pieces of ballast castings. These two pieces were from the extreme bow end and extreme aft end. I laid these two into the leftover plaster. The instructions say it can be microwaved to speed the hardening process once the initial set occurred. Hmmmm, I’ll try that with the extra molded pieces (not the core pieces). About 40 seconds on defrost, I heard a pop and a raining sound....that is not good quickly went through my head. I stopped the microwave and opened the door. One corner of the mold blew out. The microwave door was plastered with, well, plaster. Being the quick thinker, I better clean this up before my wife discovers what I did.
The mold was still salvageable, but I think I will just let the molds dry on their own. The instructions said it can take 24 hours to fully cure. I do not have 24 hours.
Being too impatient I turned the oven on to 195 degrees fahrenheit and I placed the main mold in there. Once the oven reached 195, I turned off the oven, left the door closed, and worked on other things. I came back later and everything had hardened. The next question is how do I get the clay out....since it is potters clay, adding water will get the clay soft again. I placed the cooled mold into a bucket of water and let it sit for a while. When I came back to it, the clay had softened. Using a old toothbrush and a toothpick cleaned out the clay.
12762


Then it was time to melt the lead. And I had a thought......Scary isn’t it? Why am I doing all this? I do not even know if I need all these and I am delaying the inevitable, getting the sub in water (and in the back of my head I can hear the voice of David saying "get her in the water doggone it" Well not the doggone it part). I have enough ballast from my first attempt to use. Then I can pour only the pieces I need. The master tub is too small (who designed these tubs?) and the guest one might work.
Did the pre-sail checklist. I filled the tub and put my Gato in. The excitement was high. My son came in and wanted to help. I set the sub gently into the water, holding it as water filled the free space, and let her go. She promptly, unceremoniously, flopped over on her side like a dead fish in an aquarium. I was not expecting that, but knew that is why I was making the ballast.
Released air out of her tank and lovingly held her upright, the aft end sank and the bow was high. Placing a piece of lead (from the first batch of ballast- 140grams) on the deck towards the bow, it began to level out, but it quickly was stopped by the curve of the tub. RATS...this tub will not work.
So, my son and I played (err - verified the procedure) with filling the tank using SNORT and emptying her and repeating the process. I will need to build a tank to trim the Gato. We also played with the propulsion. There is a TON of power in these props! I am so excited to get to the point of sea trials!
Once we were done playing/testing, checked the wtc and it was wet where it is supposed to be and dry where it is supposed to be dry! YESSSS!

[trout]

David,
To keep a stable sub, we are concerned about a decent metacentric distance. When trimming out the sub, would placing the weight at the extreme ends also help with stability. In my mind if all the weight is close to the center, it would seem to rock easier. Can you help explain the different thoughts on trimming a sub?
Peace,
Tom

[Reckless]

I asked the EXACT same question... thus was the reply


Naw. You're doing fine. No call for name-calling .... yet.

The vertical relationship of the fixed lead ballast weight and buoyant foam (center of gravity low, center of buoyancy high) produces the vertical forces that when displaced longitudinally or laterally (pitch and/or roll off-set from zero), translates to a torque in the appropriate direction and amplitude to force the boat back to a state of static stability (zero pitch and zero roll angle).

When the vertical weight line is shared by the vertical buoyancy line, the boat is statically stable. When these two lines are off-set longitudinally or laterally, or a combination of the two, then the boat is unstable and the two forces will work to right the boat, thus placing themselves once again along the same vertical path -- the state of static stability.

One job of the buoyant foam is to produce the additional buoyant force needed to cancel out the weight of the boat when the ballast tank is flooded. Neutral (an ideal, never achieved in the real world) buoyancy -- submerged trim -- is achieved when the boats overall weight is equal to the weight of the water it displaces.

Displacement of water (buoyant force) occurs only when an object is in the water. If foam is placed above the surfaced waterline (where it will no longer displace water), then that foam will no longer contribute its share of buoyancy to the boat. If you do put a lot of your foam above the waterline, then the ballast tank has to be increased in floodible capacity, that additional amount equal to the displacement of water lost when the foam is pushed up into the air. The more foam you keep below the surfaced waterline, the smaller your ballast tank can be and still do the job of getting the boats structure high enough so that the waterline falls at the scale location for the type model you're representing.

(R/C Models representing WW-2 submarines have notoriously high freeboards -- that's a lot of stuff to push up into the wild-blue! A big ass ballast tank is required, or you build all above waterline portions of the submarine as light as possible. Nothing looks more toy-like than a GATO sitting in surface trim, with decks nearly awash, because of an undersized ballast tank that is more hardware than floodible volume! That's the big reason I favor the gas or semi-aspirated ballast sub-system -- you get a great deal of floodible volume without giving up valuable real-estate to bags, solenoids, exotic pumps, jacking screws, pistons, Klystron relays, flux-capacitors, spin-dizzies, limit switches, speed controllers, water sensors, and other ballast sub-system support gizmo's).

Static stability about the pitch and roll axis is the job of the keel weight and foam. You play with the foam -- its amount, longitudinal and lateral placement -- to establish submerged near neutral buoyancy as well as the boats zero pitch and roll angle when at rest.

Always trim the boat first for submerged 'near neutral' trim. Once that's done, you then trim the boat for surfaced trim. You'll find the waterline too low initially (that's a good thing), and you start relocating some of the foam vertically, to a position above the submarines designed waterline. I'll yank you through the process when you get to it, non-Qual.

[trout]

Thanks Reckless, I think......So, that means yes it does help in stability? David, please help clarify for me!

The Gato will be trimmed!!!! I bought this until a more permanent solution is found, plus my son will enjoy it once it has served its purpose!

http://www.target.com/p/Intex-Blue-120in-Swim-Center/-/A-13800360?reco=Rec%7Cpdp%7C13800360%7CClickCP%7Cite m_page.adjacency&lnk=Rec%7Cpdp%7CClickCP%7Citem_page.adjacency

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Thanks Reckless, I think......So, that means yes it does help in stability? David, please help clarify for me!

The Gato will be trimmed!!!! I bought this until a more permanent solution is found, plus my son will enjoy it once it has served its purpose!

http://www.target.com/p/Intex-Blue-120in-Swim-Center/-/A-13800360?reco=Rec|pdp|13800360|ClickCP|item_page.a djacency&lnk=Rec|pdp|ClickCP|item_page.adjacency

Yes.............

David

[trout]

I like simple answers like that! LOL! Thank you.
Next question. 140 grams (about 10 oz) does not seem like enough to keep her upright. would I distribute extra weight and use foam to get her to submerged trim?
Thank you again for all that you do David!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Yes.........

David

[Reckless]

Thanks Reckless, I think......So, that means yes it does help in stability? David, please help clarify for me!

The Gato will be trimmed!!!! I bought this until a more permanent solution is found, plus my son will enjoy it once it has served its purpose!

http://www.target.com/p/Intex-Blue-120in-Swim-Center/-/A-13800360?reco=Rec|pdp|13800360|ClickCP|item_page.a djacency&lnk=Rec|pdp|ClickCP|item_page.adjacency

basically the short and dry of the whole technical explination Dave gave me is : the farther from center your foam is from your lead weight... the more it will want to rock and sway .....

[trout]

Thank you Reckless!

[trout]

Worked on some final trim issues and came up with a nifty way for quick disconnect of my bow dive planes. I had two issues with the bow plane pushrod. One it bowed and would lose the transfer of power and two how to connect them. The 1st idea was to use the magnets I got out of Apple laptop, but I found that they would slide or disconnect. Mainly because they are connecting on the horizontal plane allowing slippage to occur. Thought I would create a way to hold the magnets together using a clip, but that was just getting cumbersome and not keeping it simple. I placed this on the back burner for awhile but still kept mulling the problem over in my head. Came up with a way to connect them, again using magnets, and this time it stays put. Pictures will be coming. I also played with a quick disconnect for a snort system that I have. David has copies of the two different quick disconnects for his thoughts and feedback.

Tested the seals again for water tightness and all was good.

Inflated the mini-pool and filled it with water...in the garage..... and began testing....my son's Rain Gutter Boat for Cub Scouts. Yep, that was the priority. However, last night after Sam went to bed, I began the trimming of the Gato! With lots of rubber bands and just under 1 lb of lead I began the process. The first order was to stop the laying over and playing dead. I added most of the lead to stop that. Placing some in the front and majority in the middle. When I filled the ballast tank the Gato gracefully sunk - upright!. Good start, Then I added foam to either side in the middle and some in the stern. This lifted her up to decks awash. I placed the remaining weight on the deck and it got to the point where if I put the last chunk on, she would sink. Took it all out and the Gato is drying.

Questions.

I am going to have to shape the pieces to fit the contour of the hull. This will reduce the buoyancy. How do you figure out what to add to compensate? What is the best way to install foam?

The lead is affixed with RTV I am supposing.

Then I will repeat this process for more refining of the trim (this time I will take pictures).

Any suggestions?

There was some water in the battery compartment that must have come from the tire valve. I thought it was tight, but I have not put any silicon on it, and did not crank the stem down hard. should I? do you put silicon on the valve stem gasket?

[alad61]

Technically I'm still a newbie but with my seaview I used rtv to hold the lead and foam. I used lead sheet cut into strips ad because it's a little maleable I could gently press the strips to the contour of the hull bottom. For testing I used little blobs of blue-tac to hold them in place. I didn't add any foam till I was happy with the leads trim. I also kept the lead to a minimum around the cog then ballanced it out forward and aft from there. The foam is in small pieces as well, which was easier to handle and I reckon would help with any shape issues on your hull too.

[trout]

Alec,
Thank you. RTV it is! I am beginning to really like RTV - Sam's Rain Gutter Boat has RTV on it (holding sail and rudder in place).
I might have to roll out some lead into a ribbon.
Peace,
Tom

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Tom,

Alec has the right way to handle the lead and foam -- RTV! Follow his advice.

As to the leak up forward: Take you SD out of the hull, take the core-valve out of the equalization valve body, attach a length of flexible hose, blow (holding the two bulkheads so they don't pop off), dunk in water and look for the leaks, which will evidence as bubbles.

Hey, Alec! Did you fix the motor problem on your SEAVIEW SD? (Yeah ... the problem I created for you, sorry).

David

[trout]

Dave, Thank you I am using RTV as I type. As far as the leak, I did the test on the seals, that is why I think it is the schrader valve.

Did you open the envelope yet?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Dave, Thank you I am using RTV as I type. As far as the leak, I did the test on the seals, that is why I think it is the schrader valve.

Did you open the envelope yet?


Today, I promise, Tom. Mr. Caswell has been keeping me at the grind-stone of late (which is a good thing).

Use CA around the neck of the brass valve body, where it joins the resin bulkhead. Put the core-valve in, tighten it, then suck on the nipple and see if it leaks (try to get that imagery out of your head!).

David

[trout]

LMAO - Thanks for the laugh! I read your comment just as I was ...... well you got me!

[alad61]

Tom I use lead sheet sold at hardware stores for roof flashing. It cuts/scores well with a stanley knife or even an exacto no 11.

David I immediatly smiled with the nipple image/s. Yes I got the motors working a treat!! But I off set the good with superior dumb ass stupidity by not checking the bridge on the snort in/outlet.

So Tom when do we see the gato patroling the big waters?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Alec,

Glad the motor re-wiring did the trick. Sorry about that. What happended? ... you get the LPB plumbing backwards (wish I could say I never did that).

David

[trout]

So Tom when do we see the gato patroling the big waters?
Alec, Soon, very soon! Tonight it is another trim session - thank you for the tip on the lead strip - I will be getting some (if they sell it here in Las Vegas - mostly stucco and tile roofs)
A real estimate is 4 weeks (with work, husbandry stuff, and dad duties), I will let you know.

[trout]

I did the pre-sail checklist and sealed the Schrader valve and checked the systems for travel and function. Put it all together.


Placed the Gato in the pool. It sat proud and really close to the proper waterline. The aft end was a little high. Then flooded the ballast tank. She sank, slowly. That was O.K. I knew it needed another round of adjustments. A light tug on the periscope moved the sub and it had a little resistance. I had two pieces of pink foam left over and strapped it to the deck just forward of the conning tower. It did not raise her. Then I moved to the blue foam (Thank you Jay) and cut a thicker piece. The Gato began to raise. The aft end was above the surface, but the bow hovered below. There were only a few smaller pieces of lead. I tried each one and it would cause the sub to go to negative buoyancy. Then I had a piece of lead that was more of a overflow, scr.ap, flat piece. Placed it on and at first I thought it was too heavy, but she settled to a very nice level below the surface.
12913
It may be hard to see where she stopped at, so here is an enhanced image.
12914
and full view. The sub is a bout 4” off the bottom, nice and level.
1291512916
Emptied the tanks and she sat at the proper waterline. That told me the foam will need to be placed on the underside of the deck, above the waterline.
12917
And here is an enhanced view.
12918
More views.
1291912920
Not everything is smooth sailing, I noticed I can tip her to starboard side and she will list. Tipping her to the port side would correct herself upright.
1292112922
I think I now what that is about, in the first round of trimming, the Gato listed to the port. I moved a keel weight to compensate, I will move that back. As I played with buoyancy, I went ahead and added a piece of my pink foam aft of the conning tower where the rubber band is (no picture due to...well...read on). This additional amount raised the sub to about 1/4 of conning tower decks under water. I felt the additional buoyancy was needed.
Since things went relatively smooth, I had to apply the power to the props.... Wow! No really WOW! Tried reverse and still great performance. Checked the rudder out. Then about 5 minutes into this play time things turned serious. The props stopped responding and would maybe turn at very low revolutions.
Sub was yanked out and quickly opened up to turn off the power. There was some water in the battery compartment (about a teaspoon). Not sure if that was the issue or not.....don’t panic I told myself.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

It's leaking in the same spot. Are you seating the o-ring on the forward bulkhead properly when you install it, Tom?

Did you determine yet why power dropped off so sharply?

David

[trout]

David, it is being seated properly. I bought some extra o-rings and I replaced it to be safe. When it is seated, I even looked around the edge and it looked like contact all the way around. I will probably throw some extra RTV around the switch and heck might as well do the Schrader valve too. If that fails to stop it, I will just cry and give up....Yeah no that is not going to happen. The next step I will try is wrap some teflon tape in the o-ring channel. Any thing else I should put on the "to try" list?
I am allowing everything to dry out and will test again tonight.

So close, David, if I can hammer out the issues and everything goes well, I will run to my grandmothers place (there is a community pool) and do a midnight run!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Another leak point into the forward dry space is between the forward end of the conduit tube and its rubber seat within the forward ballast bulkhead. If that's the case: Remove the conduit tube, de-grease the forward end of the conduit tube, and build up a few coats of CA around the end of the tube to thicken it up a few thousandths. Sand the built-up hardened CA with #400, grease the tube up and slide it back into the ballast tank.

You hating my living guts yet?

David

[trout]

(With a whining voice) Do I have too? Is this a complete disassemble of the tube?


David, It is a love/hate relationship. LOL No, nowhere close to hating you (unless you do not open that envelope soon). The reality is that the more I take this apart, the more comfortable I get and the less magical or mysterious the WTC becomes. Why, I can almost say it is not rocket science....
When I replaced the second pushrod seal, there was little to no stress about it, more like matter of fact.

[trout]

I really did not want to breakdown my WTC, so I cheated. I treated the conduit tube like it was a push rod seal. Since I was putting RTV around the Scrader valve and the switch, I just went ahead and put RTV around the tube on the wet side. Removed the Schrader valve and put on the vinyl tube. Then applied a vacuum by sucking out air hoping that will draw the RTV into the leak. The vacuum seemed to hold. I had pinched the tube to keep the vacuum and a while later un-pinched it and there was still a vacuum. Replaced the schrader valve with a new one. I will let that dry. Maybe Saturday night is the night for sailing.....so close!

I charged and placed a different battery on and the motors/ESC/reciever all seemed to work O.K. - not sure what the issue is, but will keep an eye on things.

[alad61]

Since things went relatively smooth, I had to apply the power to the props.... Wow! No really WOW! Tried reverse and still great performance. Checked the rudder out. Then about 5 minutes into this play time things turned serious. The props stopped responding and would maybe turn at very low revolutions. [/COLOR]
Sub was yanked out and quickly opened up to turn off the power. There was some water in the battery compartment (about a teaspoon). Not sure if that was the issue or not.....don’t panic I told myself.

What lipogard are you running? The ones I have have a soft/pulse feature that limits the power to the motors so you can get it home and not kill the esc or lipos.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I really did not want to breakdown my WTC, so I cheated. I treated the conduit tube like it was a push rod seal. Since I was putting RTV around the Scrader valve and the switch, I just went ahead and put RTV around the tube on the wet side. Removed the Schrader valve and put on the vinyl tube. Then applied a vacuum by sucking out air hoping that will draw the RTV into the leak. The vacuum seemed to hold. I had pinched the tube to keep the vacuum and a while later un-pinched it and there was still a vacuum. Replaced the schrader valve with a new one. I will let that dry. Maybe Saturday night is the night for sailing.....so close!

I charged and placed a different battery on and the motors/ESC/reciever all seemed to work O.K. - not sure what the issue is, but will keep an eye on things.

An excellent fix on the conduit tube leak. And using the RTV will permit easy removal of the conduit tube should that be necessary.

Good luck tonight.

David

[trout]

What lipogard are you running? The ones I have have a soft/pulse feature that limits the power to the motors so you can get it home and not kill the esc or lipos.
Alec,
12934
This is the one I am using.

[trout]

The midnight run has not happened, yet. Crazy weekend filled with surprises and frustration! Surprise was from David - he shocked the heck out of me, David liked the connectors, more on that later. The frustration is there was more water in my battery compartment. It looks like the bulkhead seal between my dry chamber and ballast tank is the culprit. The o-ring contact surface area gets real thin at the bottom and may be allowing to water to seep in. There is no sign of wetness on the switch, valve, tube between bulkheads, or any sign of trickle down the face of the bulkheads. The debate in my head is tear it apart (and possibly open more areas for leaking) or do a quick fix and get sailing....... Plus the weather was cool and really windy

Anyway the test in the inflatable pool was FUN. I still had another adjustment to make (add a little more weight), but that SNORT really works great! And in the short distance going forward, I could get her to begin the dive! There are trapped air bubbles, need to see what I can do to fix that - what is the minimum size hole that allows air to freely come out? Is there such a thing? Good news - No troubles with the ESC!

The listing was not there this time, but on the initial filling of the ballast tank there is a momentary list - which now that I think about it, might be the torque tube. I have not sealed the end, gotta do that. So far I have not filled he emergency blow tank with Propel - probably should do that before pool trial. That will change the balance a little, yep more testing needed.

In the next couple of days, I will try to get posting pictures and MAYBE a video...... So stinkin' close!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

If you pull the forward ballast bulkhead, remove the o-ring, and tightly wrap anti-sieze tape around and over the o-ring groove, about four turns. Put the O-ring back in, and seat the bulkhead back into the cylinder.

Minimum vent hole size is 1/8". and bevel the hole from the inside and coat the bevel with a smidgion of grease to break surface tension.

Go get 'em, Tiger!

David

[trout]

Thank you for the hole size and tips.

What is anti-sieze tape and where do you get it? Is it the same as teflon tape?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Same..........

[trout]

Since my last posting, I was so hesitant to tear the bulkhead out and thought I could use RTV to seal the edges. That seemed real sloppy and lazy
*/Digression moment
When I was a kid and installed alarm systems, too many installers were silicon crazy. Instead of taking the time to do it right, they would slop silicon to attach a contact and leave a mess.
End of Digression */
so I went ahead removed the screws and pushed the forward ballast bulkhead out. Not so bad. Removed the o-ring, wrapped the channel with four layers of teflon tape and put a new o-ring on, greased up the o-ring, trimmed the tape and pushed it all back in. Fear of removing bulkhead gone. Placed the screws back in being very careful not to over tighten it. Once assembled, did a look over and CR*P the gap is worse!!! Do not panic, I again told myself (seems I tell myself that a lot with this build) and think this through. So pushing around the tube, if I placed my finger over the area with the gap there is a nice seal...... Backed off the neighboring screws. The first screw did not make a difference, but the second screw, when backed off the seal was made and even better than before. I tried a variety of ideas from loosening the opposite screws to shift the entire bulkhead down and tighten the bottom screws to flexing the tube and tighten the screw while holding the tube while good contact was made, all of it failed. The only thing was to back off that one screw. Conclusion, that screw (although lined up) must be flexing the tube possibly by the countersink being crooked. Whatever the reason, it was time to test and see. Here is the offending screw....
12975
As I was assembling the sub, I had a thought, if this fails, I wonder how this will look like as a flying sub. I shuddered and decided to banish that thought!


My son wanted to assist in the testing, and I thought sure. He was thrilled to see it sitting in the water so proud. Looked at me and said “It floats” (like there was any doubt I thought). Time to dive.
As she began to sit low .... there was that list again. Sealing the torque tube did not solve the issue. I also thought that trapped air could cause this and possibly the snort tubes were trapping bubbles. So inspired by David, raised the snort plumbing. This was done prior to this test. So problem not fixed.
12976


There is also the issue with trapped air in the bow and stern, that I have not addressed yet. I could do a Manfred and make the hatches open or raise as the sub submerges, but that would delay the open sea test and I do not want to do that yet. So I will have to ponder more.
I showed Sam the bubbles and he played, err tested, the systems. The emergency ballast did not work, but the releasing of air to dive does, so note, adjustment needed. Snort worked great, but again the Gato would list to one side????? What in the world? The only difference, as far as balance goes, was the filling of the gas saver. We could manually upright her, but each time we surfaced the same thing happened. After a many minutes of testing, time to take the sub out and check things over.

First, the battery area was dry!!!! Huge relief. Conclusion on listing.... I need to add more weight to the keel and re-trim her. The more weight I put in the keel and foam for balance, my thinking is, the harder it will be for small variances (like the gas saver) to throw her off, the disadvantage is it makes her slower to respond to turns. Please jump in and help me think this through.


I am really pleased with the new connectors.
The old ones would slip (red and blue thingies)
12977
And I was playing with some holders to prevent slipping and disconnect. It was just getting more complicated.
Then I cam up with the new connectors. It fulfilled my two needs quick disconnect and not slip or disconnect in use.
Taking apart and assembly is really easy. The quick disconnect holds and does not separate. Here is a teaser and David has shared with me that he will be writing an article on it.
12978
12979
12980
David has the rights to this idea and is going to incorporate them in upcoming connectors (An assumption on my part - David will have to share that info if he so desires)

[Anuci]

Your doing a fine job at problem solving, not bad for someone who built up the entire sub-driver from a kit. I'm sure you will have all the loose ends tied up before long now, and will be getting in some quality run time down at the pond.
POI, It may be a good idea to completely fill the bottle with gas as well as the ballast tank prior to making the final trim adjustments, this to help get a better feel for how you want the boat to set in the water. Just a thought!

Good sailing!
Al,

[trout]

Al, thank you so much for the encouraging words. That is a great suggestion about filling the tank completely and I will do that. So stinkin' close....My goal is this weekend the pool - big pool! then if that goes well....... a local pond, all will be filmed YIKES!

[trout]

Today was pool day......
Did a preliminary check.
13097
There was a funny glitch initially, the system would not turn on, after fiddling with it for awhile, it started up......
13098
all systems checked out (or so I thought)
It was time to launch.
13099
She sat in the water with a list again. So I took her for a drive anyways. If I installed hydrofoils, I think I could get her keel off the water. This is fast and the sticks seem a little hot (can that be adjusted on the WFly?If so where?). A small bump and she wants to RUN! Turn radius is not too bad, but what do I know.
Well let's take her down..........down.........I said take her down.......funny she would not do that. So, time to bring her in.
13100
Yep, that is my emergency crew ready to dive just in case there was a need. (Child labor laws? He was paid according to his experience)
Monday will be the next test.
When I opened up the sub there were a lot of red LEDs. So, I am guessing the sub would not dive because it was receiving a low battery alert. I did find one solder joint loose and re-soldered it, but in my tests my LiPo guard still does not show all cells charged (I have talked to Kevin and I need to take some voltage measurements - have not done that yet). The listing was most likely from the battery being on the WTC port side and not centered.
Monday.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Yeah, the WFly-8 transmitter will permit you to program the end-points of all functions. Throttle is channel-3. Set the ahead end-point to 30%, leave the astern end-point at 100%. Try that initially.

David

[trout]

Thank you - I will set that as soon as the batteries are charged. Everything is ready and waiting for batteries to charge. Last night or early this morning I found a solder joint that needed to be re-soldered - it was the very first solder joint I had made while building this sub.
Hopes are high for a successful run.

[trout]

Driving home head hung low.....need more positive ballast and it did the low battery shut down and my brand spanking new LiPo battery has a bulge.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Oh, man! .... I feel for ya, Tom.

We've all been there: the sea-trails that go on forever; the sense that each outing is one step forward, two steps back. Gut-check time, pal!

Pop a brueski, kick the cat, sit down, watch a movie, and leave the smoking heap on the bench for a few days. (But, don't neglect to perform the post-mission checks and steps as soon as you got it home).

Are you shorting that battery through your switch-harness? Is anything in there getting particularly hot? Something in there's sucking the life out of that Lipo battery.

David

[trout]

David,
The adjustment to the throttle was a great suggestion, thank you. I do not think I can take a break. Here is video I put together.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkTQNfVUkfk

I gotta figure this out..... Any tips or trouble shooting tips you can offer chime in!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

You still have life in that battery. Charge it up, turn the system on, and put your mitts on everything that passes current. Anything particularly hot?

[ADDINGTON]

Nice stuff- what software package did you use to edit and create the graphics?
-Kerry

[Anuci]

David,
The adjustment to the throttle was a great suggestion, thank you. I do not think I can take a break. Here is video I put together.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkTQNfVUkfk

I gotta figure this out..... Any tips or trouble shooting tips you can offer chime in!

First, that was a real nice job you did with this short video. Second, while lipo batteries are top of the line, you may want to consider a standard battery pack until the electric draw issue is worked thru, drain on non lipo batteries are not as critical or expensive. (I'm sure you know that already ).
I know it may be a lengthly process for you, but you may want to also consider pulling the electrics apart and re-assembling things there within the motor compartment, so as it doesn't (excuse the expression) look like as you pointed out, a rats nest in there. This to hopefully better identify an area which may be of concern, and where a hot wire is indeed touching the metal equipment tray or maybe a positive to negative within the connectors/switches, as previously pointed out. These issues can become more prevalent with multi function sub-driver equipment instalations, and until you become familiar with electric diagnostics, well let me say keeping it all as simple as posible may be the less of the two evils. At that point re-connecting the various electronics can be an easier prospect in attempting to determine an electrical component failure or breakdown, this IMHO. I'm sure some may feel otherwise and I respect that, but as a beginner which I consider myself, primarily because I don't have of a real firm understanding of various electrics, I try to make every effort to adhere to the KISS theory. ( KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID ) theory. Btw, don't forget to determine if any of the servo's are binding, or anything else such as motor output shaft to prop shaft binding which may create an excessive electrical draw on the battery. All motor components should operate as freely as possible. However, this issue does have the earmarking of something shorting out.
Good luck, I'm certain you will eventually work thru this minor setback.

Al,

[MFR1964]

Tom,

Nice vid, and don't tell me that pool is in the backside of your garden, i'll eat my hat if so.
Find the little bagger which eats up your battery, like David said look for the hot parts, or use a multimeter to measure the drawn current, by taking away each electrical part step by step you can find that current sucking bagger.
Good hunting.

Greetings Manfred.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I'm with Al, I too am no electronics expert -- I Easter-egg the problem till the bad component is replaced/fixed. He's spot on with what to do next: Pull all the plugs from their ports, and while you do so look for wires that are bare, or charred, wired backwards, etc. Good advise. And I'm also relieved to see Al distracted enough by your problems to stop busting my balls for a few moments. I rely on Al to remind me that I am, indeed, mortal.

And Manfred's more refined way of finding a current-eater: Measure total system current draw, and pull parts from the bus till you see a significant drop in current -- you have identified the bad-guy, I like it. When you do find the device that is causing your problems, remove it, place it on an anvil, grab a three-pound sledge-hammer, and have your way with it .... Great therapy!

David

[Anuci]

I'm with Al, I too am no electronics expert -- I Easter-egg the problem till the bad component is replaced/fixed. He's spot on with what to do next: Pull all the plugs from their ports, and while you do so look for wires that are bare, or charred, wired backwards, etc. Good advise. And I'm also relieved to see Al distracted enough by your problems to stop busting my balls for a few moments. I rely on Al to remind me that I am, indeed, mortal.

And Manfred's more refined way of finding a current-eater: Measure total system current draw, and pull parts from the bus till you see a significant drop in current -- you have identified the bad-guy, I like it. When you do find the device that is causing your problems, remove it, place it on an anvil, grab a three-pound sledge-hammer, and have your way with it .... Great therapy!

David

It's a harsh job, Dave, but someone has to do it. Remember this if nothing else, I wouldn't bother if I didn't like and respect you. AND I don't do it on the Sub-driver forum. : )

Your Pal,
Al,

[trout]

Nice stuff- what software package did you use to edit and create the graphics?
-Kerry
Thanks Kerry! Did it on my Apple MacBook Pro and iMovie - it is a template and really little skill by me.

THE SOLUTION TO MY PROBLEMS (and it does not involve switching hobbies)

I plugged the LiPo that was swollen into the Caswell charger.......it is a dumb charger (no offense intended). When it showed green....Magically the battery was not swollen (what goes on in that fireproof bag?)...I have been charging my batteries on a Sigma II charger (supposedly intelligent). The battery that was charged on the Caswell charger when placed in the sub showed up on my LiPo Guard as a 3S and I took the sub to the inflatable pool to test it out. Ran the sub through the paces and then after a while let the motor run on high. It was over 6 minutes of running and and no problems. So, I must have a setting wrong on my Sigma where it is not charging the LiPo completely. Anyone have a Sigma II and can offer suggestions? The Vislero 11.1v 1300ma battery should be charged at what ma?

I added more foam to my sub. When the sub went down, there was a combination of issues, one power loss and the failsafe failing and the depth compresses the foam losing buoyancy even more. I ended up diving in to get the sub - Deep end, hired diver could not handle the depth (you get what you pay for). The great news is the sub remained dry! and it did not list! and the list while diving did not show up! and looks good while it did go under! There are more positives, but the best one is yet to happen!

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I do not know that I am out of the water, but I see light at the end of the tunnel - I will know more in the next day or so. If the issue continues, I will go component by component, and meter along the way.

[trout]

Tom,

Nice vid, and don't tell me that pool is in the backside of your garden, i'll eat my hat if so.
Find the little bagger which eats up your battery, like David said look for the hot parts, or use a multimeter to measure the drawn current, by taking away each electrical part step by step you can find that current sucking bagger.
Good hunting.

Greetings Manfred.
No, that is not my backyard. I have a small inflatable pool (about 2 meters x 3.5 meters) on my patio. This is my mother-in-law's senior center - the pool is open 24 hours a day and they do not mind me testing the sub there. Good thing too! Because with the last test and the sub not coming back up, it would have been a disaster in a pond.

[alad61]

Man Tom... I can feel your pain n frustration but hang in there mate. At least you have a large pool to test things in :) I'm thinking of asking the local pool near here if I can do some more runs towards the end of their day with out the crowds so I can gain more confidence with stick time.

[Subculture]

Unless it says so on the battery, you should never charge lipo batteries above 1C (C stands for capacity). So for a 1300maH, it would mean 1300mAH maximum charge rate. You can charge them at a lower rate without harm, but it doesn't offer any benefit. Some Lipos can be charged up to 5C, so a pack can be charged in about 12-15 minutes, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

[trout]

Alec and Subculture, Thank you.

[trout]

Waiting for fuse and I am bored. So I thought I would make a detail for the conning tower. The conning tower barrel, not the whole barrel just enough to give the illusion of one being there. Checking out references.
13247
Cut out a pattern
13249
shaped some clay using the power and let it dry.
13248
The last time I vacuum formed was when I was 7. It was a time when toys were good and dangerous. I have not vacuum formed since, so this was a fun first.
I glued a couple of oak scrap blocks together. I took some of that stuff I made my hull bulkheads out of and drilled holes on a grid I drew out. Cut out two different size holes. One for the hose on the bottom and a larger hole for under the plate. Glued that perforated plate to the oak that I drilled out with a hole saw.
13250
Heated the plastic in a make-shift frame. Turned on the vacuum and allowed the suction to bring the plastic around my clay plug. Then used the heat gun to bring in the edges more.
13251
13252
It came out nice enough.
13253
It looks good in there
1325413255


I will paint it and glue it in.


Also drilled some larger holes to allow air to escape the conning tower.


Now I just need to put in the tubes for the ammo and the do-hinky pipe that David described in an earlier post.

[MFR1964]

Nice little detail Tom, slowly you get infected, resistance is futile, join the dark side of detailing.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Manfred is right. You are hooked, but good! No turning back now, Tom. Welcome to the Dark-Side!

David

[trout]

Funny! I was thinking of saying I Manfreded my conning tower.
There was no turning back the moment I opened the Gato box..... Anyways, I like the dark side, they have cookies. :-)

[trout]

David,
The locker in the conning tower, are they the same length as the one on the deck above? Did the top locker meet the locker on the other side?
I am Manfreding (Manfred do you mind that you name is becoming synonymous with detailing a sub? If so I will stop) a little more in there. Again not for complete accuracy, but the illusion.
Peace,
Tom

[MFR1964]

No objections, they call me a DNOTFO, anyway each time you add more details it will hook you up more, the dark side is strong, no escape possible.

Greetings Manfred.

[trout]

Goofed around with some more stuff. Since I can not find a reference, drawing, chart, of what the inside of the conning tower looks like with lockers for semi-accuracy I decided to wing it. Heck, it's my sub and I will do what I want.
Made the tubes for the lockers.
13308
Then installed them. Talk about backward design. In future builds, put details in, then floor.
1330913310
I will need to put some shims in to make it fit closer. It gives the appearance I was going for.

[trout]

The replacement WFLY radio should be here Monday or Tuesday. I have been antsy and felt the need to make some progress on the sub. It has been real hard not to put things on the sub that I probably would just knock off. In the conning tower, I put the shim in to get the rack foot to touch the floor. I have ordered LEDs and played with different resistors to vary the brightness. It seems that red LEDs are brighter than green LEDs so to get an even brightness I have to put a higher resistance on the red LED. I got some warm white LEDs for running lights and a Bright warm LED for the search light.
134461344713448

There is so much variation among the subs for port/starboard running lights. Some had them on the side in an opening like
13449
and others had their running lights further back like these
13450
That I am having a hard time selecting what sub I want to model this Gato after. I may even go for the all black finish like the '44 Barb or Mingo. There is still time to make that decision. The aft running light seems to be the same on all (like the Revell has it right mostly). The forward running light has severe variances from in front of the conning tower below the venturi to on a jackstaff in the bow, so that will come with a final decision of which boat to do.
I began to work on the aft running light creating a housing in brass. I will get photos on another post.
The deck railing is a standard look (most sub pictures have them in place) and when on a patrol they could be removed and stowed away. I wanted to have the option to have them on or not. Being a Magnetaholic, I drilled 1/16" holes in the rail recesses and marked the top of a 1/16" disk magnet just prior to installation. This helped me keep track of the polarity and to keep them all aligned in the same direction.
13451
Then using tweezers, slide the magnet in place.
13452
Drop some CA and baking powder to secure and support the back.
13453
The thickness of the deck's plastic that is drilled out is about equal to the magnet, so the magnet is mostly flush on the deck railing recess.
1345413455
I will need to seal these and paint. Then work on rails.
This is all fluff when you come right down to it. The focus was and is get it running. It is just during the delays that I need to be doing something.

[alad61]

Nice enhancements Tom.

I haven't done much with magnets to date... I though about lights in mine to but opted to go with a pretty much straight out of the box job. I reckon it's more of a challenge not to add the extras and just do an o.o.b job...

[trout]

yes, that may be true that it is more of a challenge! LOL It is not a challenge to modify as much as it is fill in the time for me at the moment. I am not even sure the deck railing will work, time will tell. In my head it will work but there is that separation of reality, you know what I mean? If you decide on lights, hopefully posts coming later will help. Alec, straight out of the box is a beautiful sub! I like what you are doing.

[redboat219]

An simpler alternative to the magnets would be to use short lengths of brass or stainless steel tubing so you can just plug the stanchions in.

[trout]

An simpler alternative to the magnets would be to use short lengths of brass or stainless steel tubing so you can just plug the stanchions in.
Yep - absolutely a make it simple solution! That is a great idea. Will have to make that plan "B" if this does not work!

[trout]

THE WFLY REPLACEMENT TRANSMITTER IS IN! Thank you Mike!
I boxed up the old and will send it back tomorrow.
So, any ideas what I did tonight? That's right, got it adjusted and set up for the Gato! Back in the saddle again.....

[trout]

Last night I did the pre-checkup to putting the sub in the water. Placed the sub in the inflatable pool. It went well, for the most part. After awhile, I gave it the command to dive/vent and nothing happened. I had done this several times this night, but all of a sudden nothing. The dive planes responded fine, throttle - no issues, Rudder - check, and snort was O.K. - all other features were quick and showed no signs of low battery issue or reception problems.
Pulled the sub and removed the deck. All was dry - no lights indicating a problem. Tried the vent/blow and still nothing. Tried turning off the transmitter.... nothing. Turned transmitter on, turned off the sub main power and then turned off transmitter. Put my son to bed and returned to troubleshoot. When everything was powered up, all was fine. I put the sub in the water and vented the tank, that worked fine. Using the snort system, filled the tank. Went to vent and nothing.......I applied a little reverse and then forward and the venting started. Interference? Loose wire? What in the world is going on? The rest of the night putting her through the paces was flawless. No further issues. After the test I checked the sub over and found no issues. I did not see any wiring issues and there were no lights indicating a problem. Thoughts? Troubleshooting tips? I will test again tonight, hopefully get a pool run Friday and if all goes well..... pond. Until this issue of the unresponsive vent/blow, I will always have a nervousness about the open water test. Best bring my dive gear.....at least snorkel and fins!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Check your lead connections -- there are three, maybe even four of them (if you use a lead extension between ADF and ballast sub-system servo): receiver-to-Lipo Guard; Lipo Guard-to-ADF; and ADF to ballast sub-system servo.

Check how firmly the connectors are made up.

Next time you can't get the servo to move, apply force to its pushrod and see if it then starts responding -- if so: you have a dead-spot on the feed-back potentiometer and you have to replace the servo. I think this the most likely cause of your intermittent problem, Tom.

David

[trout]

Thank you David!I will re-check the connectors (I do have an extension) and if it does freeze up again, I will try moving the servo and see.

[trout]

Just a heads up for those married.....
I was giving Tina the run down about tonight working on the inflatable pool, Friday going to grandma's pool, Saturday another run at grandma's pool, then Sunday going to the pond and doing a run. It was at the Sunday plans that it got rough....Tina shot me a look that would make Hercules get weak knee. Remember this Sunday is Mother's Day for those that celebrate that - don't do as I did and forget about it. Move over dog, I am moving in.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

You IDIOT!

What?!... you momentarily lost your Will To Live?

Even I have the survival instinct engaged enough to get a few of those 'special days of the year' set aside for the Lady.

Ellie never shouts or says much. She's one of those tough, little Filipino types who can kill with a simple 'look'.

There was this one time I really ****ed her off about something. We were freshly married -- I was a loud-mouthed, cocky, Navy Diver when this happened. After the tiff she acted like it was all behind us and carried on with her little Wifely duties. Cooked up a nice evening meal as usual, fed me a big, juicy steak with all the trimmings. By candle-light of all things. I took it (stupidly) as an apology for the earlier spat. As I started to get up from the table she slide in behind me, silently as a Ninja, her lips up against my ear, her hands lightly resting on my shoulders, and in a very soft voice said: "ya gotta sleep sometime, round-eye!"

I didn't sleep right for a month!

Two rules to a successful marriage:

1. It's ALWAYS your fault
2. Don't forget her birth-day and Mother's Day

And NEVER cross the little-lady.

David

[trout]

There is a phrase i have learned early in our marriage, "I blame myself"
I caught the subtle nuance of messing up fortunately it was prior not after. And yes I have my ID ten T moments (ID10T).

[Nige1912]

Alternatively be one of the lucky guys who manages to avoid the marriage trap and stay single - like me!!! That way you can please your bloody self and forget whatever day you desire!!!!!!!!!!!
Give him a soapbox!

[trout]

Last night there was a pool test. There were some hiccups, but overall a success!
So here is a little celebration video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyAG7FzvUkU

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Could you possibly find a crappier camera to shoot that footage with?!

But, looks like it's working.

OK, enough chest-puffing. What are your 'hiccups'? Let's fix those, get this thing running reliably, so you can make it all pretty, stuff it in a box, and get on to your next project.

David

[alad61]

Good to see it in the water and a great video too!! I love the dramatics :pop

[MFR1964]

Well done Tom,

Looking at the vid she seems to run fine, i also wonder what the hiccups are, they don't seem too influence your boat that much, keep up the good work.

Greetings Manfred.

[trout]

LOL - David, night time video with this camera does get grainy and focus is tough. I'll give you that, but it is recorded and heck, I was thrilled with that!....stuff it in a box? I hope that is not in your crystal ball!!!! Yes there will be other projects, but I really like the Gato. I hopefully will not get tired of her.
David, Manfred, and Alec, Thank you!

The big glitch was the ballast servo locking up. I pulled the sub out and reset the power (cycled it off and on again), then the sub ran for a long time before it would happen again. The other glitches were more id 10 t things like forgetting the screw for the deck and after a few reverses and forwards to make some turns, the deck came off. The chlorinated pool gave the boat more buoyancy than my inflatable pool. I will need to make a removable weight. Because of the extra buoyancy, I had to have more forward motion to dive and the planes at a harsher angle. That in turn made it tougher to turn in the diameter of the pool. I will make another trip to grandma's house to try to adjust the weight for those conditions and maybe just maybe get a pond run later this afternoon. It will take time for me to get used to the switches and controls. And not do stupid things like leave the SNORT pumps on and wonder why she is not diving.

[trout]

Again got to do a pool run. I adjusted some rudder throws and added weight. 36g of weight just to bring it to a closer submerged profile to what I had in the inflatable pool it still could have used a little more weight in the bow. I did have the same thing happen where the ballast servo freezes. A reset of power fixes it again. Even with the forward throttle cut back to 31% this sub can kick into gear and move underwater! I will post plain old video of the event.
To add weight I took along a spool of lead free solder and cut as needed. It worked o.k. for the most part. at times the weight would shift and slightly tilt the sub.
13534
And here is a panoramic scan of the sub for fun (the stitching messed up some of the it brought pieces together).
13535
I think to be safe, I will switch out the servo that handles the ballast vent/blow as David suggested.

As far as run goes, went through the first Lipo battery in what seemed like no time and the fortunately had the second one with me. The sub lost signal when it was in 2 foot of pool water and about 20 feet away (did that twice). When I walked up to it the controls responded and then the blow valve did.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Love the panoramic shot. Well done! And may I complement you on the very neat plumbing runs in there.

If the ballast sub-system servo starts working after cycling power, that tells me that either your Lipo-Guard was kicking in (low battery voltage), or there is a problem in the fail-safe side of the ADF. Not the servo!

Since you were near the end of your battery, maybe when you occasionally hit high-throttle, the current drain was enough to lower the battery voltage down to the point where the Lipo-Guard kicked in, denying channel-4 signal to the ADF -- simulating a loss-of-signal situation -- and the fail-safe did its job of freezing the servo to the 'blow' position. Cycling power resets everything (at that point the battery recovers enough to pass the Lipo-Guard voltage test).

Does the servo stick on you with a fully charged battery? That's what I'm asking you to check now.

David

[trout]

Thank you David. I was probably unclear or should clarify - it is usually in the beginning of my runs (within the first third time-wise), but not always. Battery is charged enough so that I get decent runs in after resetting.
Peace,
Tom

[Scott T]

Just catching up on this thread. Looks great Tom.

Scott T

[trout]

Scott,
Thank you! I look forward to us talking more about these subs and what you are up to. I am going camping this weekend (Cub Scouts) and Tina shot down the idea of bringing the sub :-( It is a beautiful lake we are going to ....... sigh, maybe a total body massage at the salon will loosen her up!?!


Here is another video of this last weekend pool run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLHAU35KfHY

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Trout,

Well done! You obviously are in total control of that boat. Your Wife's right, leave the boat home. Last thing you need is 101 screaming crumb-crunchers trying to get their diseased pinkies all over your model and transmitter. Leave it home.

You got the thing working! So, enjoy the moment. And thank you for the credits on that video, very kind and helps people figure out where to get the stuff and ask the questions to get one of these models converted over to r/c. Thanks.

Your WIP thread (and others) has gone a long way in securing sales for Mike and me. And, for that, we wish to express our appreciation.

David