The Great British M1

[Kazzer]

The molds have arrived and they look pretty good. They're off to The Wizard in a few days to have him work his magic on them.

We have a new model folks! 1:72 scale and this makes a .177bb the perfect weapon for the Big Gun! We need some input from the warship guys.

Does anyone know where we could get a 1:72 model biplane that could be launched from the deck?:D

[herrmill]

Good to hear, Mike. How much detail will you be offering on this new toy of yours or is it meant to be a combat sub?

Chuck

[Kazzer]

Chuck

It will be a basic hull, so far.

David is going to enhance the plug we pull from this mold. It should look pretty good when finished. It will also be capable of combat in the battleship games with a bb gun

Here are some photos

The last photo shows the M1 next to the Revell VII

At present, we have options on the castings as to where we make a cut line. We will probably not use the smaller upper hull as portrayed in the middle photo.

[Albion]

Where did the plans come from?

The M2 with the launch looked good, but that big gun Crack That WHip

[Slats]

Mike,
one thing I know about the BB guys here in OZ is that what ever shoots at them can expect a proportional level of fire - fair is fair.

Suffice to say there is no way I'd let my museum quality scale models near this crowd. Most ships here in the BB ranks look at home with what my three year old builds for craft - each to their own. Indeed why would you bother with scale appearance for something that gets the living daylights kicked out of it.

Its a great model and going to be even greater after David's hands have it.
Its going to be very scale and therefore not a target I'd offer up to the BB boys.

J

[herrmill]

Sounds good. Count me in if its going to be detailed better than a "3-year old's craft project." ;) Will the kit be only for the M1 only or also M2?

So when are you starting on that K class? ;)

[Slats]

Sounds good. Count me in if its going to be detailed better than a "3-year old's craft project." ;) Will the kit be only for the M1 only or also M2?

So when are you starting on that K class? ;)

I think it most certainly will be scaled to perfection.
Hence me cringing at what the BB guys taking aim at will do.
They don't do scale well, but they sure as **** do BB mechanisms with gusto!
:D

[herrmill]

Yes, I'm sure with Dave doing the work it will be nice.

I know what you mean by the BB warship gang since its meant for one thing - destruction. Still think a working electronic system would be great to see but who knows when (if) that ever sees the light of day. The guys I was working with are not yet in the market after 3 years of tinkering with their AFV systems. You'd think they're British or something... :D

[herrmill]

Before anyone thinks I'm being too overly concerned about the kit detail, I'll let you know right now that I'm not interested in having Dave build it complete with the overstuffed chairs in the wardroom.

I'd hate to think of the poor ratings who had to pass by that club on their way back to their bunks at the end of a long shift.. Thumbs Down

[Kazzer]

Mike,
one thing I know about the BB guys here in OZ is that what ever shoots at them can expect a proportional level of fire - fair is fair.

Suffice to say there is no way I'd let my museum quality scale models near this crowd. Most ships here in the BB ranks look at home with what my three year old builds for craft - each to their own. Indeed why would you bother with scale appearance for something that gets the living daylights kicked out of it.

Its a great model and going to be even greater after David's hands have it.
Its going to be very scale and therefore not a target I'd offer up to the BB boys.

J


But, the boat will be underwater most of the time. With an Up=periscope system you'll be able to see a ship pass by, and surface quickly, let off a couple of shots, then submerge! They won't stand a chance, like sitting ducks! Even if they fired, the bb's would lose their power as they struck the water! Me-thinks!

[toppack]

But, the boat will be underwater most of the time. With an Up=periscope system you'll be able to see a ship pass by, and surface quickly, let off a couple of shots, then submerge! They won't stand a chance, like sitting ducks! Even if they fired, the bb's would lose their power as they struck the water! Me-thinks!

Sounds like Cheating! to me. :rolleyes:
Since they don't have any depth-charges to fight back.
'Chivalry is Dead' :D

[Kazzer]

Sounds like Cheating! to me. :rolleyes:
Since they don't have any depth-charges to fight back.
'Chivalry is Dead' :D


I was never a great fan of 'rules' in war. "Stand there in line men, while they mow you down", somehow doesn't sit well. Submarine warfare was and still is 'sneaky'. I like it!

Call it cheating if you like. Those warship guys have had the pond to themselves for too long!

[toppack]

I hear ya, but I doubt the other ship owners will feel the same?
They'll be saying "Here comes that Sneaky-Brit again!" :D LOL :D
It may even escalate into them using hand-granades or something.
Before you know it everyone will be using Nukes! :D

[Kazzer]

Pond life will never be the same!

[Nuke Power]

I still fully support this project! I cant wait to see what that troll does to it! My only concearn is that Mike is loading so many projects on him that he is gonna finally kill the man!

[toppack]

Naw, David actually Loves all these Challanges! ;)

[herrmill]

I was never a great fan of 'rules' in war. "Stand there in line men, while they mow you down", somehow doesn't sit well. Submarine warfare was and still is 'sneaky'. I like it!

Call it cheating if you like. Those warship guys have had the pond to themselves for too long!

Mike, you may want to look over a few of the combat warship forums to see how effective combat subs may be & the issues they face. Here's an excellent post related to a 1/72 Surcouf, along with mention to an existing M1 & I-400:

http://www.rcnavalcombat.com/Forum/tabid/58/aff/550/aft/407834/afv/topic/Default.aspx

Again, I'm interested strictly in a non-conventional sub that will look nice with the rest of the fleet. :)

[Slats]

Mike,
flick me an e-mail with all the dope on this new 1/72 scale masterpiece and what hi holyness will do with details etc.
Time I give you and David some more page space in Course072.
Best
John

[Kazzer]

Mike, you may want to look over a few of the combat warship forums to see how effective combat subs may be & the issues they face. Here's an excellent post related to a 1/72 Surcouf, along with mention to an existing M1 & I-400:

http://www.rcnavalcombat.com/Forum/tabid/58/aff/550/aft/407834/afv/topic/Default.aspx


Chuck

I've read submarine stuff on several of these battleship forums, and I really don't think they understand all the problems involved. (I'm sure I don't either). Even if a BB penetrated the hull, it then has to go through the Sub-driver to get at the ballast tank, and if the boat is submerged, 95% of the power will be lost in the water. I can't see that happening. Anyhow, who wants a Sub-driver shot up? Balsa sides were discussed and of course, that won't work either as it will mess up the trim and even if shot up, won't effect the ballast tank. Because of the problems of having a sinkable area, I really wonder if the entire thing is actually feasible.

I can see the Snort system being the answer to the ballast, as it simplifies things and allows some 'dynamic' diving to obtain depth. Lets assume the boat is trimmed with ballast tank full and Snort tube is the only thing showing. That will be a hard target, as any BB will have to travel underwater to hit the hull. To dive deeper, the boat will need a small amount of throttle, which when stopped, will allow the boat to surface back to Snort tube level.

LiPo batteries would also dispel some of the argument about lack of stability perhaps?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Chuck

I've read submarine stuff on several of these battleship forums, and I really don't think they understand all the problems involved. (I'm sure I don't either). Even if a BB penetrated the hull, it then has to go through the Sub-driver to get at the ballast tank, and if the boat is submerged, 95% of the power will be lost in the water. I can't see that happening. Anyhow, who wants a Sub-driver shot up? Balsa sides were discussed and of course, that won't work either as it will mess up the trim and even if shot up, won't effect the ballast tank. Because of the problems of having a sinkable area, I really wonder if the entire thing is actually feasible.

I can see the Snort system being the answer to the ballast, as it simplifies things and allows some 'dynamic' diving to obtain depth. Lets assume the boat is trimmed with ballast tank full and Snort tube is the only thing showing. That will be a hard target, as any BB will have to travel underwater to hit the hull. To dive deeper, the boat will need a small amount of throttle, which when stopped, will allow the boat to surface back to Snort tube level.

LiPo batteries would also dispel some of the argument about lack of stability perhaps?

Two reasons I see why we should not produce submarine hull kits to cater to the BB gun shooters out there:

One point Mr. Caswell addressed already: that the BB shooter's don't/can't/won't appreciate the complexities or peculiarities of the r/c submarine as configured for real-world combat.

The other point is the type of activity and type of people who engage in BB shooting. Watch such an event, I dare you! You'll see non-stop banging away with BB guns mounted aboard poorly crafted, un-scale like running r/c ships, narrated with primal grunts and roars issued by the safety-goggle sporting participants.

And who's behind the transmitter stick of one of those shot-up, awful looking model warships? ... I'll tell you who: It'll be a tobacco dribbling, loud-mouthed, gun hugging, wife-beating, illiterate, yellow-toothed, bible-thumping, snake-holding, red-neck sporting a back-wards turned NASCAR ball-cap, who gets an erection each time the word 'shoot' is uttered within ear shot.

No thanks.

I'll stick with real scale modeling. And I recommend we configure the M1 kit for real scale modeling enthusiasts.

David,

[Subculture]

Hey Dave, Ramesh wanted to put a BB gun in an M1.

[Nuke Power]

What I think David is trying to say is that he has about a half dozen of them already...
The only thing I can think of for the determined man to get it to work would be balsa replacement sides like the ships use but, have balloons or such behind them that the sub is using as ballast. That way if you take enough hits or such it sinks. One or two hits would probably do it and in real life that is probably the case as well. It would help take away the extreme advantage of such a craft forcing them to lean on stealth as their advantage.

[toppack]

And who's behind the transmitter stick of one of those shot-up, awful looking model warships? ... I'll tell you who: It'll be a tobacco dribbling, loud-mouthed, gun hugging, wife-beating, illiterate, yellow-toothed, bible-thumping, snake-holding, red-neck sporting a back-wards turned NASCAR ball-cap, who gets an erection each time the word 'shoot' is uttered within ear shot.
David,

Negative Vibes, Man
So Many Negative Vibes!
Mike,
Do you have a Filter for Negatives?

[Nuke Power]

If he were gonna do that he would have to remove davids access.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Hey Dave, Ramesh wanted to put a BB gun in an M1.

Filipino's get a pass on this one, Andy.

And what would a guy, from such a tranquil and level headed group of people (Muslim hill people excluded), want to do with BB shooters anyway?!...

David,

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Negative Vibes, Man
So Many Negative Vibes!
Mike,
Do you have a Filter for Negatives?

Rick: you're not helping here, pal!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

What I think David is trying to say is that he has about a half dozen of them already...
The only thing I can think of for the determined man to get it to work would be balso replacement sides like the ships use but have balloons or suck behind them that you are using as ballast. That way if you take enough hits or such it sinks. One or two hits would probably do it and in rel life that is probably the case as well. It would help take away the extreme advantage of such a craft forcing them to lean on stealth as their advantage.

Now, that is a good way to configure a combat playing r/c submarine. It would indeed 'level' the playing field.

[Subculture]

Ramesh isn't Filipino.

I have no idea though, he's such a mild mannered fellow.

[Nuke Power]

I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear! it for some reason your forum doesn't automatically spell check my stuff. I keep sounding like a 3rd grader!

I think my idea would work except it would be a very long drawn out battle considering you would have to maneuver the ship to aim the I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear!I wear PINK underwear! thing. You could use the twin propellers to steer the thing to aim. Either way you've probably got yourself a long drawn out battle considering how fast and how many hits it takes to sink those surface boats with their bilge pumps going.
David, in your opinion do you think this M-1 even has the required room for such a system?

[herrmill]

ROLF!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D

Dave, you've just made my day over here across the pond.

Chuck

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Ramesh isn't Filipino.

I have no idea though, he's such a mild mannered fellow.

Oh, nuts!!!!

You're right! I was thinking of another poster here. Sorry Ramesh -- though it was a compliment.

(check twice, write once ... duh!)

Sorry about that, folk's.

David,

[Slats]

Two reasons I see why we should not produce submarine hull kits to cater to the BB gun shooters out there:

One point Mr. Caswell addressed already: that the BB shooter's don't/can't/won't appreciate the complexities or peculiarities of the r/c submarine as configured for real-world combat.

The other point is the type of activity and type of people who engage in BB shooting. Watch such an event, I dare you! You'll see non-stop banging away with BB guns mounted aboard poorly crafted, un-scale like running r/c ships, narrated with primal grunts and roars issued by the safety-goggle sporting participants.

And who's behind the transmitter stick of one of those shot-up, awful looking model warships? ... I'll tell you who: It'll be a tobacco dribbling, loud-mouthed, gun hugging, wife-beating, illiterate, yellow-toothed, bible-thumping, snake-holding, red-neck sporting a back-wards turned NASCAR ball-cap, who gets an erection each time the word 'shoot' is uttered within ear shot.

No thanks.

I'll stick with real scale modeling. And I recommend we configure the M1 kit for real scale modeling enthusiasts.

David,

What he said, -
and yes the models at these events do look my three year olds craft efforts
J

[Albion]

And who's behind the transmitter stick of one of those shot-up, awful looking model warships? ... I'll tell you who: It'll be a tobacco dribbling, loud-mouthed, gun hugging, wife-beating, illiterate, yellow-toothed, bible-thumping, snake-holding, red-neck sporting a back-wards turned NASCAR ball-cap, who gets an erection each time the word 'shoot' is uttered within ear shot.


Dont hold back Dave!


In regards to a BB actually striking below water level, has anyone seen mythbusters where they disprove you cant get shot under water? Basically they tried many rifles from a civil war musket (if i remember correctly) to the most powerful rifle available today. More than a foot underwater you are safe. The high velocity rifle was so fast that the bullet disintegrated on contact with the water surface. Based on these findings a BB gun will have no effect on a submerged vessel (even just a fraction of an inch below the waterline methinks)

[herrmill]

So who's doing the photo etch for this beast? ;)

[Slats]

What he said, -
and yes the models at these events do look my three year olds craft efforts
J

Actually just seen some web photos - my kid is way more talented than that. Probably smells better too.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

So who's doing the photo etch for this beast? ;)

I'll do the art-work and initial acid-etching for the evaluation builds, then will farm out the production work.

David,

[herrmill]

Cool! This is sounding more exciting each day. I'll drink to THAT!

[Albion]

Just realised i got the BBC documentary about finding the M1 on VCR tape, must re connect the player. Thats a sexy paint job on it Crack That WHip

http://www.tvfactual.co.uk/journeys_to_the_bottom.htm

[Tachikaze]

I have the M-1 in 1/72nd scale. Built by the Sainted Cliff Shaw

[toppack]

That is a Great looking model!

[Tachikaze]

Cliffy was very talented, but this ship frustrated the hell out of him, he had so much trouble in keeping her trimmed. She originally was armed with a 1/4" CO2 gun, which I did not acquire. I have found that his big problem is that the boat is way too heavy, and I am in the process of decreasing the weight of her lead keel.

[toppack]

Yes, it appears to be a very Narrow hull shape. Lets hope it's not still too top heavy with the gun removed?

[ShadowPeo]

I was never a great fan of 'rules' in war. "Stand there in line men, while they mow you down", somehow doesn't sit well. Submarine warfare was and still is 'sneaky'. I like it!

Call it cheating if you like. Those warship guys have had the pond to themselves for too long!

Cheating is only the loosers word for being outsmarted, oh and I cannot wait for this one.

[Mankster]

I have always been interested in this sub and am hoping to build one in a larger scale. Talk of a PE set has got me interested in this 1/72 model so I look forward to how it turns out.
It wasn't a BB gun I wanted to add, more one of those airsoft plastic ball things fitted to Mauri/HengLong tanks. They sell em in toy shops over here so I am guessing its not going to hurt anyone or put a scratch on anything. Just for the challange to geting it to elevate & recoil and for novelty; much the same reason we want working torpedos.

__________________
Ramesh

[Tachikaze]

Here are a couple of pictures of the innards of the M1 made by Cliff Shaw that I now have in my possession.
From fore to aft you have:
CO2 tank for ballast tanks and 1/4" gun ( no longer installed)
Foreward ballast tank
Foreward diveplane servo
Trim Tank controller
APC connected to the foreward planes
Above the TTC is the ballast control servo
Trim tank
Above the trim tank is the fail safe
5v voltage regular sets on the trim tank
ESC
Above the ESC is the receiver
R10 pink foam seperating the battery pack
pair of Maxon motors
Aft ballast tank
I'll drink to THAT!

[toppack]

Very Nice, but I'm afraid you may have to add saddle-tanks to make 'er stable in roll direction? :D LOL

[herrmill]

Or a detachable fin keel like I have on my IOM. :D:D

[Kazzer]

OK Guys!

I need takers!

One hull comprising of three halves (yes that means choices)
are going to run at $200

No rudders or fittings.

This is not for Newbies! Don't apply if you haven't done a GRP model before.

If you can produce a master for an M1 gun, planes or rudder, or can even get excited enough to produce a launch ramp or model bi-plane, we will cross your palm with silver.

I delivered the molds today to my lay-up guyand he'll have product within 2 weeks, so let me know if you are game.

[ShadowPeo]

is that 200 per half so therfore 400 for a full boat??

[Albion]

Is that a left and right hull, plus a superstructure (ie sail plus bulge) for $200?

Damm i am in big trouble, three subs in bits and another three on the horizon, where to hide the new ones from the minister for fun prevention.

[Nuke Power]

mike email me

[Kazzer]

Is that a left and right hull, plus a superstructure (ie sail plus bulge) for $200?

Damm i am in big trouble, three subs in bits and another three on the horizon, where to hide the new ones from the minister for fun prevention.


Actually, I got it wrong. There are two hull halves, split vertically. Then there is the Conning Tower and gun mounting platform, and finally a top hull section which could be used as an alternative way to cut the hull horizontally. 4 pieces. =$200

[Albion]

i'm in....about time i had a brit boat

[Kazzer]

We (Merriman and I) originally felt that we'd make a new plug from the molds, he'd scribe on a load of details, and then we'd make new molds etc. However, those plans have changed because the torpedo project loomed up with the advent of a few new gizmos we found. So, we've simply decided to produce a few of the model hulls (as per previous photos) and let those more expert at grp work deal with the control surfaces etc.

As I see it, these aren't too difficult to make from scratch.

1st pull will be ready in about 10 days, so let me know if you want in.

[Kazzer]

Planes and rudder now available for the M1

1st photo shows the parts being made from styrene sheet and 1/2 round rod, welded into place with Solvent Weld.

I mixed up a pile of sprue and solvent to make a sloppy paste, then applied it to areas that needed gap filling. Finally painted with Krylon Fusion.

My next project is to make the rubber molds and produce them out of epoxy.

My GRP guy informed me he has the first model pulled from the mold and I should have it within a couple of days. :)

[Nuke Power]

Mike is that seriously how they look with the ribbing exposed


Planes and rudder now available for the M1

1st photo shows the parts being made from styrene sheet and 1/2 round rod, welded into place with Solvent Weld.

I mixed up a pile of sprue and solvent to make a sloppy paste, then applied it to areas that needed gap filling. Finally painted with Krylon Fusion.

My next project is to make the rubber molds and produce them out of epoxy.

My GRP guy informed me he has the first model pulled from the mold and I should have it within a couple of days. :)

[Kazzer]

Mike is that seriously how they look with the ribbing exposed


Yep! Quite unique isn't it!

[Albion]

I wonder if they were castings???

[Kazzer]

I wonder if they were castings???


The Wizard told me that they were stiffening plates that were riveted to the main plate. They look a bit like a duck's webbed feet!

[Nuke Power]

I guess that makes sense. I thought they got half way done and said screw it. You know the british!

[Kazzer]

Well, it looks like The Wizard has cast his evil spell on my work and my interpretation of Lambert's plans. He seems to think the ribs are far too pronounced and that the planes are contoured/profiled. The 'ribs' I show, should be just mere thin plates on a profiled aerodynamic foil, not the huge thick cast struts I depict.

However, I think that the S Class and T Class planes are obviously just flat steel sheets with no aerodynamic shape to them. I've asked some British scuba divers who are familiar with the wreck if they can confirm the shapes for me.

[Kazzer]

I asked John Lambert in England about the ribs on his plans. Here is his reply.

Hi Mike,

Well, I'm not sure, but the ribs do look a bit thick. Although they ARE shown on the original drawing, I suggest that the outer shell is smooth, and that the ribs are internal. Does that help?

Unfortunately all the photographs show the fins underwater. But thinking about it all the other classes are smooth, so why change it.

Yours "Aye" John.

So I guess I'm getting out the filler and smoothing out those planes. Darn, I had fun making them!

[herrmill]

I guess that makes sense. I thought they got half way done and said screw it. You know the british!

I've always wondered what side of the family I got that trait from. I'll drink to THAT!

[Kazzer]

I've just received the first M1 pull from the molds.

We've decided to go with the split as supplied (see photos). I think this gives more options for real model-makers to tinker with their own ideas.

I'm going to ship the model with the excess material on it, as it offers a great deal of protection during shipping. (And it saves us doing it)

The excess trims off easily with a utility knife, and I found that the edge is easily smoothed off by laying a piece of 120 grit sandpaper on the table top and running the hull half evenly up and down.

I am going to glue the hull halves together using epoxy and Cabosil to thicken it, letting the material squeeze out of the joints. Once this is done, then I am going to cut the hull, probably in a Z cut. There is very little space in the Duck's Tail stern for rudder arms etc. so this needs a lot of thought I'm thinking that I should make the cut about 1/4" forward of the rudder shaft, so that access is easier. I've been caught too many times fiddling around with the innards of these boats being just out of reach.

Another few days and I should have the rudders and dive planes molded and in production. As previously stated, the Lambert plans have struts showing on planes & rudder, and that is a mistake, so the new planes will be smooth.

Any ideas on how you would cut the hull, please?

[toppack]

Mike,
I don't remember if you said, but is it made from Gel-coat on exterior, with fiberglass on inside?
That's what it looks like in pics.
If so, I would probably cut it with cut-off wheels that fit Dremel. The new diamond impregnated type. They make a very thin cut and don't break like the old Dremel cut-off wheels. They did a great job on the FG T-class.
Steady hands or a holding fixture are required but these wheels cut so easy it's not too difficult to hold steady.
Of course they can cut fingers Just as Easy.
See Link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-DIAMOND-CUT-OFF-WHEEL-LAPIDARY-DISC-SAW-fits-Dremel_W0QQitemZ310141890325QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4835e5af15&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

[Kazzer]

Mike,
I don't remember if you said, but is it made from Gel-coat on exterior, with fiberglass on inside?
That's what it looks like in pics.
If so, I would probably cut it with cut-off wheels that fit Dremel. The new diamond impregnated type. They make a very thin cut and don't brake like the old Dremel cut-off wheels. They did a great job on the FG T-class.
Steady hands or a holding fixture are required but these wheels cut so easy it's not too difficult to hold steady.
See Link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-DIAMOND-CUT-OFF-WHEEL-LAPIDARY-DISC-SAW-fits-Dremel_W0QQitemZ310141890325QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4835e5af15&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Sorry Rick! By ' Any ideas on how you would cut the hull, please? ' I meant Where you would cut the hull, rather than how.

[toppack]

:D LOL
And they keep telling me the English speak Our language! :D

Of course the best place would be just below the superstructure, if that will make a large enough hole to stuff everything in.
If not, might as well make it at the widest part of the hull, where the hull is most vertical. A cut in a vertical wall is easyer to fit together with smaller gap, than a sloped wall.

[Kazzer]

:D LOL
And they keep telling me the English speak Our language! :D


Pillock! From someone who is challenged by the spelling in the language too! See 'easyer' below. Why is it that most people educated in the USA can't spell worth a ****?
:)


Of course the best place would be just below the superstructure, if that will make a large enough hole to stuff everything in.
If not, might as well make it at the widest part of the hull, where the hull is most vertical. A cut in a vertical wall is easyer to fit together with smaller gap, than a sloped wall.Good grief! He thinks I may use an axe or a chainsaw to cut the hull? When what I'm after is, do I use the Z cut method, the standard 'top off with the forward end of the top attached', or something completely different? As usual, the horizontal cut would be at the waterline.

Sometimes asking questions isn't such a good thing!:)

[Albion]

Pillock! From someone who is challenged by the spelling in the language too! See 'easyer' below. Why is it that most people educated in the USA can't spell worth a ****?
:)

Good grief! He thinks I may use an axe or a chainsaw to cut the hull? When what I'm after is, do I use the Z cut method, the standard 'top off with the forward end of the top attached', or something completely different? As usual, the horizontal cut would be at the waterline.

Sometimes asking questions isn't such a good thing!:)I think method b based on what ive seen so far.

America and England, two nations divided by a common language, just wish my company allowed me to drop the US speel checker, "Supervize, Improvize" indeed.

BTW Axe is the way to goI'll drink to THAT!

[Nuke Power]

You need to provide more info to get a proper answer to that question mike...

What is the beam at maximum dia. what is the beam at the deck? What size sub driver are you planning? Is there room to get it in with the dogbones and linkages by sliding it in...etc. Who knows the best way might be like the engel boats where the whole front end is removed. You will need to experiment to find the best way. The hull looks very sleek but not very big. Some size comparison next to your gato would be great.

[Kazzer]

You need to provide more info to get a proper answer to that question mike...

What is the beam at maximum dia. what is the beam at the deck? What size sub driver are you planning? Is there room to get it in with the dogbones and linkages by sliding it in...etc. Who knows the best way might be like the engel boats where the whole front end is removed. You will need to experiment to find the best way. The hull looks very sleek but not very big. Some size comparison next to your gato would be great.

This is the stuff we need!



America and England, two nations divided by a common language, just wish my company allowed me to drop the US speel checker, "Supervize, Improvize" indeed.

Yes, those words irritate me too! Very sad! :eek:

[Nuke Power]

Great you like the questions but provide no answers. Amazing you lived this long!

[Albion]

looks the dive planes have good access, but rudder hmm


Looking at Tachikaze's M1 the hull cut needs to extend right back in order to reach the rudder.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=400225
Sorry to post another forums (the RC groups loser forum) thread, but if you look here it is a 1/96 Gato hull which is also quite tight at the stern. look at how he arranged the rudder control with silver soldered post. might be whats needed here.

[Nuke Power]

that or a belt driven rudder. Atleast there is only one rudder.

[Tachikaze]

The positioning of the rudder is why the seperation of the hull is set up the way it is. The tiller on the rudder is only slightly longer than 1.0cm. The throw on the servo is about 1.5cm.
I have a similar problem on the Surcouf, not related to the length of the tiller arm, but finding a line on the boat to seperate her and still look good.

[toppack]

When there's absolutely no room for a tiller arm at rudder you may want to consider a Timing-Belt. There are teeth on the belt and in pulleys, so there is No slippage.
They are made in many sizes, including very small, like is needed in sub models.
The actual tiller is mounted further forward in hull, with a pulley on it's post, then the belt goes aft to the rudder post and it's pulley. The pulleys are very light weight aluminum, so this system doesn't add much weight but are very strong and reliable.
Here's a link to a company that sells belts and pulleys:
http://www.motionindustries.com/motion3/jsp/mii/productSearch.jsp

Note: when trying this Link, directly to belt sub-catagory, it was extremly slow for some reason. you may have to go to their homepage and do a search by catagory.

[Nuke Power]

you can also get them at mcmastercarr

[Kazzer]

The rudder assembly isn't my real concern with this model. Although there isn't much height in the Ducks Tail, it is wide enough to place a servo arm to one side.


I decided to fix the conning tower today. Trimmed off the excess around the edges and then sanded them flat on a piece of 120 grit paper.

I taped the two halves together using electricians tape as it stretches well and pulls the parts together. I mixed up some epoxy resin and coated the inside along the joint, then mixed some CABOSIL into the remaining resin until it was a paste, then brushed a dab or two of that into the joint. The thickened resin fille the crevices pretty well. Tomorrow, I'll remove the tape and give the part a light sanding to remove spew etc.

[Kazzer]

Here is the M1 model up against the Revell VII. Both at 1:72 scale.

And another new photo of the M1 gun.

[Kazzer]

A good photo of a museum model of the M1, showing a close-up of the gun. I'd love to get shots of the entire model.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/HMS_M1_submarine_model_turret.jpg

[Kazzer]

Some M Class facts:

In 1924 all three completed members of the class were used to test hull
to reduce the visibility of submarines from [/URL]aircraft

—M1 was (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Aircraft)painted grey-green, M2 dark grey whilst M3 was painted dark blue.[U]

More data here (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/British_M_class_submarine)

[toppack]

Some M Class facts:

In 1924 all three completed members of the class were used to test hull
to reduce the visibility of submarines from aircraft

—M1 was painted grey-green, M2 dark grey whilst M3 was painted dark blue.



I wonder about the Test results? Did they ever decide which Color was Best?

[Tachikaze]

Since my M-1 will no longer be used for combat, I would like to scale her up.
What source are you guys using for the sail and deck information?

[Kazzer]

Since my M-1 will no longer be used for combat, I would like to scale her up.
What source are you guys using for the sail and deck information?


We have 1:144 scale plans by J Lambert. I order them from UK occasionally. If you want a set, I think they are approx $20

[Tachikaze]

I am looking more for photos, I have the plans that were used for construction of the boat, and they pretty much show me what I have.

[Tachikaze]

I am taking my M1, that was originally built for combat, and making her more pretty.
The gun is out of scale for the 1/72nd scale boat, done so as to hide the 1/4" ball bearing gun.
For a lack of what one calls it, where the gun exits the superstructure, there are what appear to be two "bulges" that decrease in size until the gun exits them. Can some one give me the length of the gun from where it exits the " bulges" and the OD at the base of the gun and the OD of the gun at its muzzle. And what scale those measurements are taken from.
Thanks

[Kazzer]

I found a drawing of the gun used on the M1, an Armstrong Whitworth 12 inch /40 naval gun
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_12-40_mk9_Elswick_pic.jpg


Here is a drawing of the gun.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/BL_12_inch_Mk_VIII_gun_diagram_Brasseys_1899.jpg
At 1:72 scale, I figure the model's gun should be 6.3"

Now, all I need is a good lathe operator to turn one up in plastic etc. (Hint -hint)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Now, all I need is a good lathe operator to turn one up in plastic etc. (Hint -hint)

I'm busy, damit!

[Nuke Power]

perhaps I will make one just so I can post pictrues of what you cant have mike!

[Kazzer]

perhaps I will make one just so I can post pictrues of what you cant have mike!

Hmmm!

First one to get me a finished, turned gun that I can mold from gets a new ADF

[Nuke Power]

I start as soon as I get an email with a drawing of exact size and dimension

[Kazzer]

I start as soon as I get an email with a drawing of exact size and dimension


Good grief! I just posted the drawing!

[Nuke Power]

Yes but I want you to make a drawing showing excatly what dimenssions you want it to be that way there is no argument in the interetaion! Geez. If you want the darn gun youll do it cause I will turn it as soon as I get it!

I will wing it if you like

[Kazzer]

Yes but I want you to make a drawing showing excatly what dimenssions you want it to be that way there is no argument in the interetaion! Geez. If you want the darn gun youll do it cause I will turn it as soon as I get it!

I will wing it if you like

The drawing posted has the dimension of the real thing on it, some 450" ?

Depending on the size you print the drawing off, you can easily scale the dimension @ 1:72

[Nuke Power]

ughhh the part of the job I am trying to avoid!

[Nuke Power]

i guess ill just have to do everything

[Kazzer]

ughhh the part of the job I am trying to avoid!

Huh! Some machinist you are! Can't even extract a dimension from a set of drawings? Huh!

(Methinks we may get a gun to fit on our 1:230 Skipjack!)

I guess I'd better do it for the poor boy!

When you print out this drawing, the gun should measure 6.3" long (Scaled in Graphic Converter - a Mac program)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Huh! Some machinist you are! Can't even extract a dimension from a set of drawings? Huh!

(Methinks we may get a gun to fit on our 1:230 Skipjack!)

I guess I'd better do it for the poor boy!

When you print out this drawing, the gun should measure 6.3" long (Scaled in Graphic Converter - a Mac program)

Easy there, Mike. Remember: you're dealing with a nuclear trained grease-monkey. One false move around him and he'll tear your face off.

(The only reason the navy keeps those guys around is that they make fine neutron moderators -- without them, the kettle looses steam, and we forward guys have to get out and push).

David,

[Nuke Power]

David is right and wrong.
I will rip your face off but we don't moderate neutrons. We actually found out the reactor is powered by souls. We are pretty sure it is what finally killed rickover since nothing else seemed to.
I will try to start the gun for the skipjack today. Need to check my stock.

[Tachikaze]

Excellent, thanks.
Will try to turn one this weekend.

[Nuke Power]

Made it out of brass. You want the details put in it or do you want to add them yourself you filthy brit

[Nuke Power]

Oh here it is. I left part of the stock on because I didnt know if you wanted the breach made or if you wanted me to do a partial bore on the gun. I also did not add the raised lines where the gun was assembled because I wanted more info on them because it does not appear they are a consistent thickness all the way around. Let me know. You know where you can send the APC :)
Anything else need commissioning?

[Nuke Power]

Couldnt resist and bored out the gun. Just happened to have some pellets and dart lying about so I hooked it up to my compressor. This thing is going to be a good time.

[Tachikaze]

6.3" seems really long !

[Kazzer]

A couple of inches of that sits inside the cowling.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/HMS_M1_submarine_model_turret.jpg

[Subculture]

Do you say that to all the girls?

[Tachikaze]

That was kind of my question, how much of that gun is extending from the last cowell?

[Albion]

Do you say that to all the girls?
Fnarr fnarr


Mike
So whats the plan now, you going to be providing a fittings kit with the appendages and gun??? Is that an add on or part of the base kit (with increase in price, i know, you dont get out for nowt)


(only 28 days until i see some more RN big guns, but 15" not 12", and launched a year before, woo hoo)

[Kazzer]

I have some planes and a rudder, and hopefully Kevin has sent me his gun, so I'll make a mold of that. I'll add them into the kit for now, then review te whole thing later.

[Nuke Power]

slight delay in shipping I am sick as hell and so is the rest of the family now. Monday is looking good sorry for the delay mike. Doctors orders, and I mean orders.

[Albion]

Swine flu? take some oinkment

[Nuke Power]

Oh no its the bird/dog flu its a whole new thing. I think I am going to cure it with a gun.

[Tachikaze]

Most of the girls are amazed at how long the 6" are. But for the boat, we talking 6.3" length of the gun, or length of the barrel?

[Nuke Power]

sorry for the small delay mike the gun is in the mail via priority

[Kazzer]

sorry for the small delay mike the gun is in the mail via priority

The gun turned up today. Nice job Kevin!
What diameter did you drill it out to?

[Nuke Power]

Im glad you like it. I drilled it out to .187 I believe.

[Kazzer]

At last I've started making the molds for my planes and gun.
Here is the first half of each mold.

[Albion]

Looking good, i'm away for a couple of days but i should find some M1 plans when i get home :) - received :)

[Kazzer]

Looking good, i'm away for a couple of days but i should find some M1 plans when i get home :)

The molds of the hull are now in stock.

Gun and planes are about a week away.

[Albion]

The molds of the hull are now in stock.

Gun and planes are about a week away.
did you get my PM?????

[Albion]

Its all very quiet, whats going on?

[Kazzer]

The Wizard has completed the 'control surfaces' mold and product will be available next week.

http://forum.sub-driver.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1557&d=1257647893

Here is a shot from The Cave, showing the Wizard's Work.

http://forum.sub-driver.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1560&d=1257647940

Note the gun has an aluminum insert inside, giving it the potential to be a workable weapon.

http://forum.sub-driver.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1559&d=1257647927

The kit will now comprise, two GRP hull halves, Conning Tower, Fittings Kit comprising dive planes & rudder, 1/8" prop shaft, Raboesh Props.

Here is a shot of the boat with a Revell VII alongside.

http://forum.sub-driver.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1558&d=1257647910

[Albion]

Fantastic news Mike, errr woot

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Just one little correction to what Mike said about the gun barrel: I'm using aluminum tube as the bore, not brass. I wanted to maintain as light a weight in the topside fittings as I can to minimize trimming problems for the customer. That's why we went for the hollow resin gun in the first place; forming the bore with a brass tube would have been counter-productive.

And I want to apologize to those of you who I have keep waiting on the M-1 kit. It took forever to find definitive proof of what the control surfaces actually looked like. As it turns out, the plans Mike and I have been working from are correct: The horizontal control surfaces are terribly thin of section and employed an internal casting to transmit the shear and toque loads to the operating shaft. This results in the distinctive 'nub' at the inboard edge of each surface -- that nub constituting the external projection of the control surface operating shaft into the load absorbing casting underneath the plating of the control surface. Confirmation of that arrangement revealed in a U-Tube video from a sport dive of the HMS SWORDFISH.

Though the SWORDFISH was not of the M class it was the precursor of the K class. And the M's employed pretty much the same hull and control surface arrangement as the K's. One shot in the SWORDFISH dive video got up close and personal on a bow plane, which revealed the nub. Also, it appears that the rivets used to secure the plate to the internal casting were counter-sunk as none of the research I came up had any visible rivets atop the control surface plating. Hell, the American Confederate marine engineers were counter-sinking (flush riveting) submarines in the 1860's, so it makes sense that the Britt's in the 1920's would be doing the same for their submarines.

Anyway ... that's my version of the story, and I'm sticking to it, ******!

David,

[Albion]

Makes a lot of sense to me, Mike's original attempt looked a lot like a early century casting type thing, and having the same drawing I concur. The riveting also makes sense.