New 1/144 Revell sub kit r/c conversion packages for 2010

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Last couple of days I've been playing hooky from the torpedo work and have been working up product to support the r/c'ing of the fine Revell 1/144 Type-214 and Type-212 kits. Lot of commonality between the the two submarines, so I'm getting some synergy from the dual effort.

Pictures are the masters for the type-214 fittings kit and a mock-up of the 212/214 SubDriver. This 1.25" SD will feature a LPB ballast sub-system. I had to devise a new type ballast tank vent valve, a sort of 'guillotine' type, that presented very little operating force yet was small enough to not increase the SD's sectional area significantly. Worked out pretty good -- you see the test-article just after some in-water testing. Like the control surface pushrods, the ballast vent will inter-connect to the internal servos through external magnetic pick-ups, eliminating the need of watertight seals between servo and linkages external of the SD.

You watch ... the moment I'm ready to go to market with these fittings kits and SD's, Revell will pull their tools off the production line!

David,

[Outrider]

Nice start on this. Looks like the 1.25 inch driver fits in well. The snort pump up front seems to be a good use of space, especially here.

What's the protrusion in slide #4?

The last photo shows what looks like new control surfaces with embedded rods. My son tried that with with the kit's control surfaces, but said the bow planes were too thin for the rod he had.

I think this SD is going to be adaptable to a wide variety of polystyrene hulls. It has "Special Navy" written all over it! Type IIA or Type XXIII

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Nice start on this. Looks like the 1.25 inch driver fits in well. The snort pump up front seems to be a good use of space, especially here.

What's the protrusion in slide #4?

The last photo shows what looks like new control surfaces with embedded rods. My son tried that with with the kit's control surfaces, but said the bow planes were too thin for the rod he had.

I think this SD is going to be adaptable to a wide variety of polystyrene hulls. It has "Special Navy" written all over it! Type IIA or Type XXIII


Yeah, the LPB pump is in the wet, the motor in the dry in that special forward bulkhead. But that left the problem of where to put the system mission switch. Fortunately there is space in the lid of the servo box as I only use three servos on this model. Today I'm figuring where to stick all the devices -- the driving issue with that is that I can pass only so many wires through the very small 1/4" conduit tube that communicates between forward dry space and the servo box and after dry space, so most of the electronics will go into the after space! That's where the motor is. Guess we'll see just how good those spark-suppression cap's turn out to be.

That 'protrusion' is the guillotine valve I devised for the ballast tanks that will use only the LPB for de-watering. The brass pushrod makes up to the magnetically coupled ballast sub-system servo. On the transmitter: left stick to the left positions the servo to open the guillotine valve, flooding the tank; right motion of that stick turns the LPB on, blowing the tank dry. The LPB induction is within the sail, up on high -- all I have to do is broach the sail and I can pull air down into the ballast tank. Dirt simple.

I'm just going to glue the bow planes on. Tell your kid that .030" wire will work to make those planes practical.

Oh, yeah! There seems to be an infinite number of plastic model submarine kits (in or out of production) that can now be adapted to r/c with the introduction of these little SubDriver's. Now ... is there a market for this happy-horse-doofer? That's the question.

David,

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

2209
... I think this SD is going to be adaptable to a wide variety of polystyrene hulls. It has "Special Navy" written all over it! Type IIA or Type XXIII

Oh, yeah!


DSCN0042.jpg

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Move'n along ...

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Only alteration of the type-214 SubDriver to get it to work in the type-212 is the use of a 'sliding' servo to achieve mechanical mixing of the pitch and yaw servos to drive the X-tail configured stern control surfaces.

David,

[Outrider]

Busy, Busy! You should take more sabbaticals.

Type-214: It looks like you made a scribing template similar to what you used in the D&E Type-212. I assume that the drainage holes are more about effective RC ops than about scale accuracy. (Which makes sense--the holes are on the bottom where you'll never see them when the boat is doing what's intended.) Magnetic attachment on the aft hull point seems much more serviceable than a machine screw. Haven't seen your prop yet. Assume you'll go white metal for serviceability and speed.

Type XXIII: Open doors... Wow, will you be able to make the SubDriver a static diver and a shooter? The Alanger kit looks nice with the SubDriver test fitted.

Type-212: Will the mechanical mixing on the X-tail eliminate the need for an electronic mixer? Any possibility that Sombra could add an electronic mixing function to the SL-8 receiver itself? (It doesn't seem like that would be too difficult, and I suspect you'd really like to minimize the number of electronics you have to accommodate in the SubDriver.)

[Outrider]

SubDriver Electronics... Talk about putting a size 13 foot into a child's large shoe...

Let's see...receiver, ESC, ADF, LiPo guard, snort, ballast & maneuvering servos. That 1/4" connecting tube wouldn't be likely to handle many of those wires, so most everything electronic has to be aft.

Space must be at a premium everywhere in the little SubDrivers. I assume that's why the electronics have lost their shrink wrap cases.

Keep those photos coming!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

More subjects suitable for conversion using a variant of the 1.25" SubDriver:


http://forum.sub-driver.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2220&d=1261955520

[redboat219]

Nice work Dave. Can't wait to see a static diving 1/125 Type VII.
BTW, How does the guillotine valve compare to the usual SD poppet style vent valve in preventing leakages when closed?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Won't have an answer to that till I have more time under my belt with the new type valve.

David,

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Yeah, I'm providing a template for the end-user to mark-out the bottom of the little 1/144 type-214 model where he'll have to punch out the flood-drain holes. Just as you observed, much in the same manner as I did for the 1/96 Type-212 kit.

I would only go magnetic on a Z-cut hull if there was no gas type ballast system employed -- the sudden over-pressure within the hull might pop the two halves apart, sending the lower hull to the bottom and the upper hull to bob along, very lonely looking, to the surface. Since the little type-214 will only use a pump, the magnetic coupling of the two hull halves, without a screw back-up, is acceptable to me.

As to the X-tail mixing: No, if you provide a mechanical mixer you don't need (must not) electronically integrate stick to servo operation. Incidentally, with the computer type transmitter you can V/X-tail mix right there and not burden further the SD with a device and yet more load on that overworked BEC in there.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Full day on the 1/144 Revell Type-214 r/c conversion job: Finalized the SD design; worked out the stern plane and rudder yokes; after some farting around with wrong ideas, finalized the type universal that fits between SubDriver motor shaft and propeller shaft; and made up and tested a pair of control surface linkages aboard the model.

Before putting the SD together I leak checked the motor bulkhead and LPB bulkhead. This done by attaching each to a short length of 1.25" o.d. Lexan tube that's been outfitted with a hose at one end. I blow into the hose, dunk the tested bulkhead underwater, and look for leaks. Duh!

Concurrent with the mechanics I would take a break and deepen the engraved lines on the model with a pointed rat-tail file -- for production reasons, the engraved lines on an injection-formed kit are always too shallow. While I was messing around with the hull I place a little 1/8" i.d. Oilite bearing into the stern through which the propeller shaft would fit.

This is a small model, so I employed .020" brass wire as both the operating shafts and yokes that interconnected the opposed stern planes and rudders. Fortunately, the stern planes sit higher than the propeller shaft, so other than the U-shaped bell-crank I bent into it, it's a straight affair. Not so the rudder yoke-operating shaft, that item has the classic semi-circle shape to it.

You'll note that any slight misalignment between the SD motor output shaft and propeller shaft is taken care of by a short length of flexible hose fit between the coupler and propeller shaft -- this hose held in place with a pair of brass hose retainers.

The more I look and work on it, the less I like the kit supplied propeller. I might make a master and cast these things from metal.

I made little cast resin magnet holders to ease the chore of integrating them to the very small diameter control surface pushrods -- something I should have done way back when I started using these type magnetic couplers on the little Revell 1/230 SKIPJACK project. Live and learn. Bla, bla, blaaaa ...

David,

[Outrider]

Another day well spent!

Magnetic coupler vs. mechanical fastener. Split hulls underway are a very bad thing indeed. Sometimes following good advice is excellent insurance. "Never operate a sub in water you wouldn't swim or wade in."

X-tail mixing presents an interesting conundrum for you. In cases where you (the designer) decide to omit mechanical mixing, that means the SD must be big enough to incorporate an electronic mixer, such as in the 1:96 U-212. (Either that or the end-user uses a transmitter that incorporates a mixing function.) Something to think about for instructions...

Engraving. Excellent point, especially given the type and amount of primer you recommend. Hobbyists transitioning from hobby shop paints would be used to putting on fewer (and thinner) coatings. That said, it's important from an accuracy perspective to know which lines are the result of panel joints and openings and which are the result of welding. (I can just see you saying "duh," but, as we both know, kits get released all the time with engraved lines where raised welds should be.) There are plenty of raised weld lines on the U-214 prototypes. The kit's welding beads may or may not need adjustment, but it's important not to get carried away and start scribing lines into the hull that should be "outies."

Bearings and flexible shafts are good. So are metal props. Kit prop doesn't look horrible, though I'm uncertain as to accuracy or about the possibility of variations (variations seem likely, given this is an export sub). My sense is that, should you decide to go metal, the end-user would get more accurate and more serviceable propulsion. Few end-users would complain if you added a metal prop to the kit.

Seems to me I remember some knucklehead making an unsolicted suggestion about casting resin magnet holders. Glad to see these in development/production. Way better than CA and baking soda IMHO.

Looking forward to hearing about sea trials.

JFC

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Another day well spent!

Magnetic coupler vs. mechanical fastener. Split hulls underway are a very bad thing indeed. Sometimes following good advice is excellent insurance. "Never operate a sub in water you wouldn't swim or wade in."

X-tail mixing presents an interesting conundrum for you. In cases where you (the designer) decide to omit mechanical mixing, that means the SD must be big enough to incorporate an electronic mixer, such as in the 1:96 U-212. (Either that or the end-user uses a transmitter that incorporates a mixing function.) Something to think about for instructions...

Engraving. Excellent point, especially given the type and amount of primer you recommend. Hobbyists transitioning from hobby shop paints would be used to putting on fewer (and thinner) coatings. That said, it's important from an accuracy perspective to know which lines are the result of panel joints and openings and which are the result of welding. (I can just see you saying "duh," but, as we both know, kits get released all the time with engraved lines where raised welds should be.) There are plenty of raised weld lines on the U-214 prototypes. The kit's welding beads may or may not need adjustment, but it's important not to get carried away and start scribing lines into the hull that should be "outies."

Bearings and flexible shafts are good. So are metal props. Kit prop doesn't look horrible, though I'm uncertain as to accuracy or about the possibility of variations (variations seem likely, given this is an export sub). My sense is that, should you decide to go metal, the end-user would get more accurate and more serviceable propulsion. Few end-users would complain if you added a metal prop to the kit.

Seems to me I remember some knucklehead making an unsolicted suggestion about casting resin magnet holders. Glad to see these in development/production. Way better than CA and baking soda IMHO.

Looking forward to hearing about sea trials.

JFC

Another thing that tempered my worry about the hull opening up and splitting while underway is the fact that I expect these little 1/144 scale and such sized r/c submarines to be operated in reflecting and swimming pools -- places where you are assured recovery should the magnet fasteners fail you.

I'm still working out the final 'recommended' arrangement of internal devices within the SubDriver. The goal is to insure space for a V/X-tail mixer (for those using this SD for the 1/144 Type-212). But I do recommend that you either mechanically mix at the servos, as previously illustrated, or to use a programmable transmitter and do the integration there. And you're right, I'll have to take care to fully explain the three mixing options when we get around to writing up the type-212 instructions.

Yes, points well made concerning the thicker primer and paints I use. Without an enhancement of the supplied engraved lines found on these kits, they will be lost by time the clear coat goes down. As to raised 'weld' lines. I think it a fools errand to represent these in the positive on such small scale subjects, better to engrave them and let the shadow they produce represent the raised bead. Frankly, with such a small scale I don't represent weld beads (they are ground down on the prototype anyway), I settle for the access hatches, doors, hand-holes, torpedo tube shutter doors, barn-doors, access hatches, and such.

You're skillfully pushing me to make new props for this fittings kit, aren't you? Damn you, word-smith!

Hey, a good idea is a good idea. The dedicated magnet holder castings was a natural progression -- should have had them done in time for the SKIPJACK fittings kit release (they are, now). See: Zeus does cock his ear in the general direction of the great unwashed every now and then.

David,

[Outrider]

Not pushing. I just think you'd be a lot more proud of your kit if it had a durable and accurate white metal screw on the tail.

Propellers are not easily made by just anyone... remember that Zeus didn't buy his lightning bolts at Wal-Mart, and they weren't made of polystyrene. It took a god to forge Zeus's weapons, even if he (Hephaestus) wasn't the most glorious face in the Pantheon.

Enough with the mythology, though. You know what "must" be done...

JFC

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Damn you!

(I start the blade master tonight).

Though the profile of the kits propeller is pretty good, the blades are a bit on the thick side, and a bit too wide of span. Also, since this is more blade area than I want driven by a direct-drive 250 sized motor, I'll halve the pitch from the norm -- instead of pitch = diameter, I'll work the blade chart to achieve a pitch that's half the diameter. That'll unload the motor considerably.

Any other metal parts I should consider for this fittings kit?

David,

[Outrider]

These 214s are so clean, I don't think there's anything more that's needed in metal. 'Scopes would be nice, but might be hard to do at this scale.

JFC

[Kazzer]

2247
Arghh! It's those glasses again! The way they look at you!
Then I realised, Merriman is also employed by Geico - The insurance company.

15 minutes could save you 15% or more on your car insurance.

No wonder those torpedoes are taking so long!

[Subculture]

Ever considered offering a range of your props investment cast in silicone bronze (like prop shop)?

Your props are nice, but I'm not a fan of white metal for this sort of thing- one chink against something hard, and they're toast.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

You're absolutely right, Andy. Time permitting (and when the cash becomes available) I'll do the investment casting here. I've been waiting all these years awaiting a 1200 degree tolerant RTV mold making rubber ... ain't happened yet. So, looks like I'll have to bite the bullet, go old-school, and go the traditional route for casing the high-temp. metals.

Nice thing is, the way I've designed my white-metal tools, I can use those to shoot the wax models needed for this brass line of propellers you're suggesting.

David,

[Outrider]

Hmm... If only there were a corporate backer close by... Deep enough pockets, venture capitalist maybe. Loves R/C subs. Can even part the waters before they freeze... Naah, Mister. Nobody like that 'round these parts... ; )

While we're waiting for brass, I was wondering if David is doing a 1:144 U-212 prop in white metal, too. Seems like a good time to economize on effort.

Andy, that was a great question.. Brass is way more durable than white metal. I also wondered if there's something in a polymer that might be suitably strong for this type of application. Delrin might fit the bill, but I think it's unlikely to fit into David's workflow. As I understand it, most Delrin parts aren't cast, but rather get machined into shape, something that probably requires a big investment. (CAD/CAM and a Five Axis Milling machine probably would be very nice for this application). My guess is that David would be on the look out for something that's better than white metal, as he's probably a bit tired of getting hit by flying molten blobs of it...

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Well ... that was a subtle warning shot through the bridge windows. Hope Mr. Caswell appreciates it. Nice.

I did some part-time help on behalf of a local Jeweler, working the back room. So, I know the equipment I need and how to use it. Trouble is I only have a one-car garage as a work space here and my floor-table space is fully occupied as it is. And I'm not about to stick burn-out ovens and oxy-acetylene equipment out in one of the sheds. And I'm loath to trust my masters and tools to 'strangers' for off site casting; I've tried using metal-casters before and in each case I got burned (sorry) in way or another in the transaction. This stuff will have to wait till I can enlarge the shop. Maybe in a a year or two. Hang in there -- white metal ain't that bad, guys.

Yeah, you pushed me over the edge. I'm doing a proper propeller for the 1/144, type- 214, in white metal ... I assume you meant 214, not 212.

CNC'ed production propellers!? ... you made out of money?! I can cast them from resin, but you would then have prop blades that break instead of bend. Your choice: pick one.

David,

[Subculture]

A plastic prop offers no advantage over a metal one, except in terms of weight.

As props are thin and low in mass, this isn't an issue. I would think a silicone bronze prop will be lighter than a white metal one, aluminium would be lighter still and exhibits lower shrinkage but would be nowhere near as strong.

Investment casting is the way to go. Low(ish) cost in terms of tooling, but with excellent results.

I think Dave already has a propller for the 212 in white metal, he did one for Adam quite some time back if my memory serves me correctly.

Dave maybe you should have a word with Bob Martin. He has someone doing the big nautilus props in brass and aluminium.

[Outrider]

Re: your Angel Venture Capitalist... figured it was worth a try. He seems to appreciate quality and I doubt you'd put out a brass prop that either of you wouldn't like.

Actually, the 212 wasn't a typo. I knew you were working the 214, but with the photos of the 1:144 212 on the Caswell web site indicating a future product based on the Revell 1:144 kit U-212 and all... Well I just got to thinkin' about the fine work you did on the white metal prop for the 1:96 212, and I thought you might just want to get ahead on the 1:144 212 since you were pouring hot metal. It's not like you are a mere mortal and need sleep and stuff... ; )

Bend is way better than break, especially if it bends back.

Some plastics are better than some metals for the prop application. Cast aluminum, for example, tends to snap rather than bend--not so good. By comparison, a few plastics are reasonably elastic as well as stiff. David would probably say of these plastics... "Stiff, elastic, easy to work with, cheap. Your choice: pick two."

Happy to have the white metal props. Don't think anything different because I see the merits of some alternatives. The excellent need not be the enemy of the good.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

A plastic prop offers no advantage over a metal one, except in terms of weight.

As props are thin and low in mass, this isn't an issue. I would think a silicone bronze prop will be lighter than a white metal one, aluminium would be lighter still and exhibits lower shrinkage but would be nowhere near as strong.

Investment casting is the way to go. Low(ish) cost in terms of tooling, but with excellent results.

I think Dave already has a propller for the 212 in white metal, he did one for Adam quite some time back if my memory serves me correctly.

Dave maybe you should have a word with Bob Martin. He has someone doing the big nautilus props in brass and aluminium.

Investment casting is very expensive compared to low temperature casting that is done is silicon or natural rubber molds. Investment casting: The big expense is TIME. And the burn-out oven uses a LOT of electricity, and then there is the investment ceramic itself and the wax model -- lost with each shot.

I did two propellers for the 1/96 Type-212, the six and seven-blade versions.

Damn good idea, Andy. I'll give Bob a jingle on that.

David,

[Kazzer]

Damn you!

(I start the blade master tonight).

Any other metal parts I should consider for this fittings kit?

David,

One job at a time pal! Let's see the damned torpedoes finished. And will you buggers STOP distracting him! Focus here ----- TORPEDOES!!!!!!!

(Goodness knows why we're messin' with this stupid Revell POS toilet bowl submarine that only two of you will buy! I still have a shelf full of Revell Skipjacks everyone wanted that no body actually wants. God******t! )

I've had two or three people offer to make us bronze props and it fell on stony ground, so why the sudden fascination? EH? Bugger the props, focus where the real market is - unless I got it completely wrong and none of you really want TORPEDOES? EH! Eh?

Good grief. You're like a lot of schoolkids! Grrr, mutter, #*!@#!!

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

That puts a lid on it, boy's and girl's.

David,

[Kazzer]

To be fair, it was I who badgered The Wizard to spend weeks of his time making the 1.25" cylinders for the Revel Skipjack. I was wrong, he was right, maybe the market isn't ready for this?

[Outrider]

The $64,000 question for you is "what will sell?" For me, it's what will excite me enough to buy. (That said, it's obvious that there's a shared joy in R/C subs--my sense is that this could be a profitable hobby, but that this could never become an Industry.)

You do well in asking people what they want. (It's something I appreciate.) I think that polling requires many iterations, though. And, unfortunately, things do change. For example, bad news about the economy doesn't necessarily help sales, since these are mostly luxury items. So when people said they wanted something (e.g. the mini Skipjack), I can understand why they may have changed their minds.

I think that the smaller subs have a market, even if the Skipjack has thusfar disappointed. "Skippy" costs about $400 in kit form, about $300 of that in electronics. That's actually a pretty good price point. But it is a lot of work to translate the parts into a practical RC. And, though small, it's not by any means simple, unless you're something of a Wizard...

My sense is that these things will drive sales:

The right kit. Right here is complex, because "right" is like "pretty", hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Problem is that "pretty" is in the eye of the beholder. You like British subs and have pulled out some novel bits of history with the M-1 and other innovative (if not entirely successful) ideas that the Royal Navy explored in the WWI era. I like modern subs and some of the novel WWII (e.g. I-20, I-53, I-400) and cold war (e.g. Regulus conversions) subs. My son likes Type VIIs and torpedoes. (I hear you like torpedoes, too.) Who's right? Don't know. After all, you're interested in the people who aren't buying, not the ones (like me) who are.

The right size. The Goldilocks conundrum. For many, pool operations are going to be the norm. Can't be too small, can't be too big. I don't know that the issue with "Skippy" is related to lack of size. Sure, it's too small for distant ops in murky waters, but in a pool like you showed in your video, it seems nicely sized. So what's the right size? For many who will be operating in a pool, something much bigger than three feet seems impractical, even if the 13 inch Skipjack is too small. (IMHO, that Skipjack is flawed by sub-par moldings that require a lot of work and by the need for more thorough instructions. Size seems less of a factor, at least to me, since it adds to the places I can use it as compared with bigger units.)

Ease of assembly. Tough one. Other than experienced submarine modelers, these things are not easily and quickly built. Things have changed. It used to be that there were models (Revell, Monogram, etc) for sale all over the place. Now, they're only in the LHS and on the web. Kids just don't build static models any more, and, in a world of PlayStations and X-boxes, they rarely seem to see or make the opportunity. No kids, no new customers. But if you want to sell, you need new customers. New customers are (generally) novice by definition, so if you want to grow, you've got to address their abilities. I don't think it's possible to make a beginner's kit too easy. But I think it's essential to make a few kits that are very easy--practically turnkey--if you want to grow your audience. I also know it's hard to do this. (Design and instructions are key.)

Cheap enough. I know it's hard to do this, too. David needs to make a living and you need to show some return. But a great product that's outside the budget will sit on the shelf. My opinion is that it's got to be below $500 to meet this threshold.


Keep plugging away--you'll find the right product eventually. The D&E 1:96 U-212 was a nice surprise. It's a quality kit, and a bargain for what it is, but it's not entry level in terms of price ($1K) and required skills (many static modelers haven't worked much, or at all, with GRP.) I think the 214 will come in a lower price and will have a lower required skills barrier. Tough to know whether it's the type of kit that would excite sales, but it's sized nicely for the pool. Of course, David has devised a SubDriver that's pretty adaptable, so if the U-214 isn't "pretty" enough you have a good basis for another try.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Jim,

Great, level-headed observations there. I would love to argue some of the above and call you names and such, but you gave me nothing to work with!

Yeah, the trick is to find a 'universally' appealing hull, find a plastic model kit of it in the right scale, produce the fittings kit so even a dope can assemble it, and price it to sell. That's the trick, now, isn't it. Still poking around ... we'll find the right combination. One thing is for sure: You're right about the majority (the norm) of people running these things in pools, so we have to come up with a package that runs in a pool effectively.

This guy on the payroll, Mike? Damn good analysis. No rose-colored glasses there.

David,

[Subculture]

Kit this. Not only will it appeal to submariners, it will also catch the eye of flyers and whirlybird pilots.

Dynamic diver, aquabatic, futuristic looking. Minimal details, could be designed in such a way that no glueing operations are required.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

You might have something there, Andy.

In fact, Darrin Hataway produced and shared with me a GRP copy of just that vehicle he researched and reduced to a kit. Food for thought. Might fit the bill.

David,

[Subculture]

Did he?

Artful bugger. I know he did the Deepflight 1, but I didn't know he'd done the Super Falcon as well.

Got any pictures?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I stand corrected, I didn't know the difference, I think what I have here (in the shed awaiting its turn at the shop) is the DeepFlight 1. Sorry. Don't think he did the Falcon. Anyway, it's got wings.

David,

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Struggling mightily to get this thread back on track ...

Just to shut Jim up I finished the basic work on the new 1/144 Revell Type-214 submarine replacement propeller master.

The kit propeller, though close to looking like what hangs off the ass-end of the prototype does, on closer examination, have way too much cord thickness near the hub, and the blades are way too thick. Yes, the kit supplied propeller will produce some thrust, but a lot of that torque energy will be lost as turbulence and the excessive blade area gives us a propeller that would excessively load down the direct-drive 280 size motor used in the little SubDriver needed for this tiny model kit. Bite me, brushless motor people!

God! does this mean Skip will jump this thread and hit me with the gear-your-drive-train speech? Again! Somebody, anybody: kill me now.

Anyway ...

To make the propeller master I first had to come up with a sketch of the propeller blade -- one with substantially less cord, yet capturing the shape of the propeller blades seen on the kit box (some great reference material there!) and in videos of the real boats you can catch on YouTube. For some great video of this boat out of the water, start with this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j9LYRCCZLc&feature=related

I then plotted out a blade chart to determine the degree of helical twist needed for a blade possessing a pitch 1/2 of the propellers diameter -- I went with this very low pitch (typically I make my marine propellers with a pitch that about equals the propellers diameter) to further unload the motor. The objective of the entire exercise is to achieve a replacement propeller that will be reasonably efficient and will present a much lower load on the motor than the kit supplied wheel.

I carved a single blade master out of RenShape, made a high-temp RTV rubber tool from it, cast up a bunch of white-metal blade blanks, assembled those blades to a RenShape hub, and wa-la! a new propeller master. Tomorrow I build up small radius fillets between blades and hub, clean things up, prim the beast, then make a production RTV tool from which fittings kit white metal propellers will be cast. There! Happy, Jim?

Nothing to it.

Damn I'm good!

David,

[Outrider]

Significant improvement. Happy indeed.

[Kazzer]

I only hope and wish that we could persuade The Wiz to produce these props separately from the Fittings Kits. He has a phenomenal range of props in The Cave, mostly collecting dust, because the actual mold is integrated with all the other metal parts associated with the particular model the kit is designed for. Need a prop? Gotta buy the entire Fittings Kit. Bugger up a prop, buy the Fittings Kit. As we have progressed in our marketing, the need for replacement props is now more prominent.

The other down side currently is that Merriman's White Metal is reported as being a little soft and the preference is for brass or bronze. However, I think this could easily be overcome by nickel and brass plating the white metal (a fairly easy process with our Plug 'n Plate Kits.)

Currently I've been selling Raboesch props, but I have to order a truck load and it makes doing business difficult. I have been approached by The Chinese and a US business to supply bronze/brass props, but they are significantly more expensive than the White Metal ones. So, whilst everyone is yelling 'Yea - I want brass/bronze etc. etc" the truth is that when presented with the price, they'll scuttle off into the corner to suck the corner of their blanket.

'Merriman's Metal' may be a little soft for a prop, but if David were to gang half a dozen props together in a mold, he'd be able to churn them out for next to nothing. Me adding hundreds of percent greedy profits to 'next to nothing' would hardly effect the price and everyone would get a cheap prop. Ding it up, buy another! Want it tougher, plate it with nickel, then bronze.

There are some companies who sell low temp metals for jewelry production, and maybe alloying experimentation here might also solve the problem. We used to sell a small casting kit with sand etc. and a really good book on casting small parts. I think we may have some copies left somewhere.
2261

There were mentions of different alloys in here, but it was a while ago I sat down and read this book. Where is my copy? Probably in one of the dozens of boxes I haven't opened since 'The Move'.

[Subculture]

Based on Prop Shop prices (my first port of call for a model prop) £10-30 ($20-60) is the going rate dependant on size and complexity. That's for a fully polished and machined prop. Simon will supply you with a raw casting to fettle for yourself if you want to save a couple of quid.

If the cost is more than this, folk will leave them to collect dust on the shelf.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

And that, as they say, is that. Thanks, Andy.

David,

[Outrider]

Excellent points, Mike. White metal isn't an ideal solution in terms of durability, but it's still OK. Want durability, go for machined billet titanium as is used in the vanes of a gas turbine engine. But we all know why that's just not realistic for an RC sub. Maybe if David would go brushless and get us the kind of speed that needs heat tolerance...

Meanwhile, back in the real world... Brass is often the (economically sensible) material of choice for props at any scale, but David has explained why it's hard for him to go brass. Your points about alternate sourcing of brass props make sense to me--high effort, low yield. If the market were big enough, outsourcing brass might make sense. That tipping point is down the road.

Plating is an intriguing idea and something that makes sense to raise given Caswell's "other" line of business. I think there are plenty of end users who don't want to fool with the acid bath on the white metal props or who simply would want something ready to install when the original prop becomes unserviceable. These customers (myself likely among them) would be thrilled to get a hold of a pre-plated prop--as long as the price didn't get too high. (I think Mike is dead on the money regarding the sales potential of an expensive brass prop.)

Given the options, I'd want to be able to be able to purchase a pre-plated white metal prop. Cheap enough and "plug-n-play" work wonders.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I cleaned up the propeller master, used it to make the production tool, and went about the task of casting up a bunch of production white-metal propellers for the little 1/144 Revell, Type-214.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

To be fair, it was I who badgered The Wizard to spend weeks of his time making the 1.25" cylinders for the Revel Skipjack. I was wrong, he was right, maybe the market isn't ready for this?

Re-reading this thread I came across this chestnut. With the passage of some time since the little SKIPJACK SubDriver effort I must say that the investment in energy and time to come up with the 1.25" diameter SubDriver is going to eventually pay dividends -- concurrent with the SKIPJACK work I also developed the peripherals needed to adapt this small diameter cylinder to the 'larger' plastic model submarine kits out there.

The market is ready, we just have not found the subject and the scale that will blow everyone's skirt up. I think this medium sized 1/144 Type-214 will be the winner Mike and I have been looking for.

David,

[Outrider]

I like the basic Revell 1:144 214 kit. It seems accurate, but, even if a few rivets are misplaced, the parts fit together well and the surface detail is clean and crisp. I also think it's a nice size for pool use.

Given the guts are similar to the little Skipjack, I'm hopeful the pricing will be similar--and similar to RC Helis, which have sold very well in this price range (e.g. TREX 250, TREX 450), despite the helis being more complex to operate and being far, far more prone to catastrophe.

IMHO these are great starting points--necessary, actually--but not on their own sufficient for broad success outside the cabal. It's also got to be easy to put together and then to set up and operate. I don't think an RTF (ready -to-fly) set-up is necessary, but a one click order with everything, perhaps less the transmitter, wouldn't hurt.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

And that is the crux of the problem: we don't offer RTR stuff; it all requires some assembly, set-up, maintenance, and operating skill. Today's crop of American's are lazy, unskilled, and endowed with some terrible sense that it should all be handed to them on a platter, no work on their part involved or invited. Don't think so? Go to the local r/c flying field -- ask the guys on the flight-line if they built the aircraft they drive around. Even more disappointing ask them if they trimmed their own airplane, or did they get the resident 'expert' to do it for them?

No Craftsman anymore. Just (F word used) idiot, mouth-breathing, tobacco juice dribbling Drivers.

David,

[Outrider]

How do you really feel, David? ; )

Are you getting the urge to see yourself in pink again?

I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion. I've observed the same trends at my LHS, where nobody seems ready to build their own heli. There's some hope, though. Most of the RTF/RTR stuff tends to be on the low end of the quality scale. Want something better? You'll turn a wrench eventually.

Is the 214 getting underway soon? Everything seems to be coming together nicely.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Should have the little beast in the water, trimmed, and off to you soon. I'm playing hooky today and have been working on it.

Oh ... one thing you forgot (maybe I didn't tell you) to get to me was the Lipo-Guard. Other than that every thing is in hand.

David,

[T. Schulte]

It's not just R/C subs and Helis. I have an extensive collection of H.O. model rr equipment. I model a specific railroad and count rivets. The hobby has gone from a wide assortment of craftsman kits and scratch build supplies to " out of the box and onto the layout" type items. All very nicely painted and detailed in CHINA or some other far away land. Also very expensive. Seems like they're targeting a market of doctors and lawyers who want to impress there kids at Christmas but don't possess the skill or smarts to take the time to bond with their sons and daughters. That's OK, society will raise their children for them. T.S.

[redboat219]

I wonder if this could be used in making small scale bronze propeller? I came across a craft book about using Metal Clay to make fine jewelry sculptures, etc - basically it's composed of small particles of metal like gold silver or bronze mixed with and organic binder and water which can be pinched, rolled, extruded and molded. Firing in a kiln or even using a handheld butane torch burns off the binder and sinters the metal articles together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precious_Metal_Clay
http://www.bronzclay.com/bronzclay.htm

you could make a propeller mold and press Metal clay into it, take it out and fire it and viola - bronze props!

[roedj]

To All,

OK, so I know this is a bit off topic but indulge me anyway please.

I've heard this complaint about no craftsmen anymore in every hobby I've ever been involved with from Ham radio (over 50 years) to modeling trains to boats to planes. Respectfully, I must submit it's a lot of Merde de Toro. Here's why:

1) In order to sell someone a "craftsman" kit they, more than likely, are already in the hobby and want to expand their skills, and

2) It's very hard to sell to someone IN the hobby if you don't first get them INTO the hobby. RTR is the most productive way to do that, IMHO. I am just now starting to build submarines because a) I like boats and b) I've been building surface boats for years and am looking for more of an engineering challenge. How did I get into surface boats, you ask? A older cousin of mine grew tired of a particular boat he had and seeing my interest and envy gave it to me, RTR. It's been downhill ever since - LOL.

And now for some totally unsolicited and probably ignored business advice. You want to expand your business Mike/David, come up with a RTR kit, maybe it just needs painting, and go from there. Hook 'em with that and then reel 'em in.

Just my 2 pfennigs worth,

Dan

[Kazzer]

The major problem with this idea is that building an RTR boat is labor intensive and we simply do not have enough elves in the cave, nor do we wish to employ any. (They're mutinous little so 'n so's) Its a catch 22 situation.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Agreed. We simply don't have the industrial resources or capital to design and manufacture RTR's.

David,

[Outrider]

He's back...and without the pink shorts!

I can understand the issue of elf management. It's a sensible position to take. Also, RTR has a support back-end that's probably disenchanting as well. My sense is that you'd want your market to have plenty of self-reliance. Cuts down on the noise...and the phone calls.

I think the compromise between RTR and a "craftsman kit" is to stick to something that is easily converted into R/C and requires the minimum amount of supplies and equipment to do it. As we're all aware, price matters, too. Realizing that RTR isn't in the cards, entry-level still means (IMHO) under $500 and something between a one day and a one weekend build--shorter being, for these purposes, better. Hopefully, the Type-214 will meet these criteria. It should be fast and maneuverable, easily put together, easily serviced, and easily stored. It should work fine in anything from a kiddie pool to an Olympic pool. So people should have a wide range of options as far as actually getting underway.

I suppose the open question is whether enough people find this particular model appealing. My guess is that many customers have a strong preference for WWII subjects. My fear is that too many with that bias wouldn't give something modern a fair shot. Still, I hope enough people can be persuaded to give the Type-214 a try. I'm hopeful David will report good luck with Type-214 operations. That would, at least in this forum, get the ball rolling.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Almost done with the 214 project. No way we can get the total cost to the customer below $1,000. And it is not a simple 1-5 day assembly job.

I've taken the fittings kits and SubDrivers (from a user friendly standpoint) just as far as my skills, education, and facilities permit. The product either sells (I continue with the work) or it does not (I find work at Walmart). Reality check.

David,

[Kazzer]

And I guess all this revolves around the concept of bringing more people into the hobby. I had this discussion on another forum and it fell on stony ground. RTR's won't necessarily bring people in unless a massive advertising campaign is launched. The return on such a promotion, I can assure you, is pitiful. I suggested using an existing periodical submarine publication, marketing and distributing that properly, but there were several (with no evidence to substantiate anything) who disagreed. Thankfully, I don't have to work with committees, preferring my dictatorship here, so I gave up on beating my head against that brick wall. I have found Caswell's best return on advertising investment has been in our own banner ads, and those we pay a monthly fee for on RCGroups. Mind you, many small submarine businesses would hurt really badly if they had to pay that bill every month. I am fortunate that this comes out of our general advertising budget. Unfortunately, none of this gets out 'into the streets' and drags people into our lair.

Caswell Inc's website has a daily hit rate of many thousands, and since we have been selling submarines, we have 'spread the word' fairly effectively, bringing in a reasonable number (but insufficient) of new customers that would not otherwise have been introduced to the hobby. It's difficult to determine how effective this is, but I'm confident in saying it works better than any regatta or hobby show attendance.

Breaking through the sales barrier of getting these 'toys' selling like Action Man is highly unlikely, and that means mass production to reduce costs is also unlikely. What I think is really our best bet is to promote the hobby between ourselves, and ensure that when a 'newbie' does join us, he is given all the encouragement and technical support to ensure his project is completed, in the water, and not left collecting dust as it lingers forgotten on some dusty garage shelf.

I've tried to keep this forum short on chatter and 'smileys' (The Wizard's pet hate), high on technical documents and support, open and FREE of fees, and that is a big draw to the hobby, (and to those tired of club and forum fees.) We have an excellent crew here and it grows daily, but we are many miles away from RTR and mass production.

No Walmart for you pal. Just get back to work on those torpedoes! You'll be busy for months on just that. Then there's 1:36 scale to start over on.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Work continues on the 1/144 Type-214.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

... You'll be busy for months on just that. Then there's 1:36 scale to start over on.

OK, boss.

David,

[Outrider]

David, nice to see you back without the exotic attire... If things go awry, though, the pink shorts might be a good conversation starter for a budding Walmart greeter...

People navigate by the North Star without expecting to actually get there, just close enough for their own purposes. Even if sub-$500 and RTR are nothing but a pipe dream, your efforts to simplify are bearing fruit.

I just priced out the 1:232 Skipjack from Caswell. It's about $150 for the Revell kit, D&E fittings, and the SD kit. The rest of the electronics are about $300. I know the static diving Type-214 is more sophisticated than the dynamic diving Skipjack, so it will logically cost more. My guess is that it would be similar in pricing to the 2.0 inch driver for the Kilo, which is also a static diver. (I should not guess in public about final pricing, especially when I know there are significant gaps in what I know about what costs must be covered. However, even though you and Mike may hoist the Jolly Roger, I've never felt gouged. I'm sure the final price will be fair value for goods and services offered.) And though it's way too early to be certain, I suspect that the extra money spent on a Type-214 is going to seem well worth it. Based on what you've posted, the Type-214 looks spectacular.

The best thing to focus on may be on making it easier to put kits together. Kits like the Trumpeter Kilo are a great choice--doesn't even need a Z-cut. Wonder of wonders, that's the kit you recommend as a starter. You also recommend keeping sail & bow dive planes fixed in some cases. Seems to me like you're doing all the right things. If only we'd listen...

My guess is the only way to further simplify is to stuff a SubDriver into something that's already been built (likely to involve elves, since there doesn't seem to be an existing source of suitable hulls just sitting around waiting to get mobile). Since reality points to existing unassembled polystyrene kits as the best opportunity to get people started with a good product at a fair price--keep taking it. There will be plenty of us along for the ride.

JFC

[Kazzer]

Work continues on the 1/144 Type-214.


WOT? No gas - and no bladder either? Cor! That must appeal to both sides of the fence! There's motive for a new signature there.

[redboat219]

Check out this RC conversion of the Revell Type 214 done by a Japanese modeler. Utilizes a dry hull instead of a WTC and uses a small gas ballast system. Hmmm. I wonder how well the model's plastic hull resists water pressure and up to what's it's operational depth rating.

http://www.excite-webtl.jp/world/english/web/body/?wb_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rc-blueworld.com%2Fdockyard%2F144%2Fuboat214%2Fuboat2 14_01.html&wb_lp=JAEN&wb_dis=2

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Well! Finally crammed all those devices into the little SD. Whew!


2337233823392340234123422343

[Outrider]

Looks like you're reached the maximum practical component density limit of this small SubDriver, unless components start shrinking. The servo module looks as if it would need to get expanded to pick up a fourth servo for, say, operable bow planes. My guess is that fine monster prop you've made will put plenty of water over the stern planes such that the Type-214 won't have any trouble maneuvering without bow planes. One less thing to buy/break, too...

Looking forward to hearing about sea trials. We've had some conversations about submarine races (always gets a wry chuckle) and we were wondering which 1:144 boat you've made is the fastest in a straight line and which is best maneuvering at speed. (My younger son is fond of putting brushless motors in mini RC trucks.)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

The little subs will torque roll-over before you get to maximum throttle -- only so much weight-foam you can cram in there to plumb the boat upright against torque and foil-roll forces.

My money is on the little SKIPJACK (though it's a cheat, different scale). It's a bullet.
David,

[redboat219]

Hey, Is that your new torpedo launcher?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Ooop's. I'll fix that right now.

[Outrider]

Well, well, well. There's been a lot of activity in the cave, which explains all the quiet here on the forum. The (now disappeared) photos show the 214 has a proportionately huge sail (think Triton/Sailfish w/out the radars) and that a 214 puts a lot of torpedoes in a ready to fire position.

Sure doesn't look like there would be any room in the sub-driver for a fourth servo for the bow planes (unless you forego the mission switch). The resin blocks for the control rod magnets look like a much better solution than CA and baking soda. My two Revell Skipjack fittings kits don't have those resin coupling pieces for the magnets, but would probably benefit from them. Two of the 214's control rods have bends in them near the magnets. Any reason other than setting the length?

The clear plastic pieces (at least three of them) represent navigation light covers. Any thoughts as to the feasibility of LED lighting, which I would assume would be exterior to the SubDriver. Lights are kind of a gimmick, but can still be useful for orientation if bright enough to be seen.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

I accidentally put an in-work shot of the torpedo launcher sub-system. Could not figure out how to just dump that one shot. So took the whole thing down. I'll re-post with better text later today.

I'll amplify on the clear parts there. Please, stand-by!

David,

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Some more pretty pictures. Almost there.


23702371237223732374237523762377237823792380238123 822383238423852386238723882389239023912392

[Subculture]

Does that guillotine valve rely solely on a close fit between the plastic surfaces, Dave? Or is there something else going on there. I've looked at it, but can't make out how it remains airtight.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

The wire between the magnet and rubber element is so bent as to bear against the top of the black guide tube (piece of split heat-shrink tube), pushing down on the magnet and the rubber element. Dirt simple.

As a soft ballast tank, one that is open at the bottom, this tank does not see much differential pressure, so the light force holding the rubber element down onto the machined flat of the cylinder is more than adequate to make the valve water/air tight.

David,

[pjdog]

Dirt simple but brilliant. I'm impressed again.
Any lubricant on the cylinder so it will slide?
Jack

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Simple is good.

Just some silicon grease.

David,

[Outrider]

OK, I'll bite. Where are we at with this gem? Seems like it was very close to sea trials... Did the 1:72 Foxtrot project intervene?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Kinda. And torpedoes, production work, sleep ...

Here's some recent work:

David,

[Outrider]

I thought the witch said that sleep is over-rated, especially for you. T-O-R-P-E-D-O-E-S and production, it is. A wise Sailor recognizes the right answer when presented with it. A wise old Sailor (almost) always gets that right.

The 214 will get done when it gets done. It's a good story to follow as it moves along. Thanks for the continuation of photos. These will help produce a very complete set of instructions. Also a good reminder of the importance of pre-shading in the appropriate areas. Tech questions...

Any need for drainage amidships underneath the ballast tank? (Obviously you don't want to swiss cheese the keel, but it it helpful for diving performance to "shorten the straw" so to speak?)

Looks like all of the 'scopes are stored, which makes sense due to the fragility of 'scopes at this scale. Is there any need to provide venting in the sail?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

You're a big help! No sympathy here, that's for sure.

Since this boat is not using gas -- with it's occasional over-pressure of the hull -- the forward and after flood-drain holes are adequate; water has plenty of time to get into and out of the hull during the surfacing/submerging transitions.

You can build this kit in either version: masts up or down, I went with the masts down for the reason you identified. More pictures tonight I hope. Yeah, you got to vent that bubble that would be trapped in the sail without the holes (of course, going with the 'raised scope' version provides those holes automatically). ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't.

David,

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Today's work on the 1/144 Type-214:

2556255725582559256025612562256325642565

[Outrider]

More sympathy than you know... Your curse is that great work simply demands more of the same.

Great work on the non-skid application. Also makes a nice photo tutorial on masking. You nailed the look of crazed plexiglas over the navigation lights, which adds a lot of realism.

What's next?

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

More sympathy than you know... Your curse is that great work simply demands more of the same.

Great work on the non-skid application. Also makes a nice photo tutorial on masking. You nailed the look of crazed plexiglas over the navigation lights, which adds a lot of realism.

What's next?

Today the waterline down gets marine growth, critter mung, some bleaching and camel induced paint damage. I'll paint the propeller and attached attenuator gold, then will splatter it with darker browns till it has that proper oxidized look.

The 'crazed' Plexiglas look is just scratching from #600 grit sandpaper, most of it will go transparent again once I hit the dead-lights with a clear coat. As it will be a well flattened clear coat, the clear parts will get a bit milky -- that's the effect I'm looking for, anyway.

Tomorrow I'll start in on the vertical streaking, bird-poop (****!) deck scuffing and draft markings.

You rooting for the Greek's or the South Korean's? Pick a side and I'll make this model a representation of a boat for that navy.

David,

[Outrider]

No preference. Take your favorite or the one that's easiest to portray. I've just finished some research on the 214s. Here's what I found:

Looks to me like the RoK is in the lead for actually building their subs, paying for them, and putting them into commission. Kinda gives you something to work with...

The Greeks contracted for one 214 to be built in Germany that is also well photographed--the Papanikolis. This one seems to be on offer to a good home at the moment. Three other 214s were built/are being built in Greece. There's clearly some turbulence regarding performance and payment that's keeping the lone German built unit pierside in Germany. (No way that I'm picking sides on this.) But there does seem to be plenty of info on the Papanikolis, and the idea of a stateless sub seems kind of apt for this design.

The Portuguese are likely to get their 214s before the Greeks do. One (Tridente)was supposed to be commissioned this month, but I can't find any confirmation that it's now in Portuguese service. There are plenty of photos of it under construction, though.

[Markos1388]

I have been keeping my eye on your build for some time as I too have the 214 from Revell trying to convert to RC, anyway Im rooting for the Greek Papanikolis as I am Greek. The Korean version I think is a bit greenish in colour so its a bit of a waste now you've painted it black.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Then we'll go with the red-headed, *******, step-child rubbing up against a pier in Dutchland.

CHANGE THAT! With the recent dope received from Marcos, I'm going with one of the Greek boats.

David,
________
Vapir Oxygen (http://www.vaporshop.com/oxygen-vaporizer.html)

[Markos1388]

A few pics I found of the Papa if you find any use for them:
266226632664
________
Herbalaire (http://www.vaporshop.com/herbalaire-vaporizer.html)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

A few pics I found of the Papa if you find any use for them:
266226632664

Oh, man! You're a life-saver. I delayed one day the below waterline weathering and was feeling bad about it. Now, I'm glad I got delayed. Your three pictures are perfect resources for what I'll do. Very thoughtful entry, and a big help to me.

Why does this boat have 'KIEL' on the boat? That's a German yard, is that where it was built?

David,
________
BUY AIR ONE VAPORIZER (http://vaporizers.net/vapir-air-one)

[Subculture]

Blohm and Voss make the 212 and 214's, Dave.
________
APPLE GAMES (http://macgame.org)

[Markos1388]

The Greek Navy has ordered three Type 214 submarines. The first, Papanikolis (S120), was built at the HDW Kiel shipyard and was launched in April 2004. As of April 2008, the Greek government has refused to accept delivery of the vessel ( this was due to the sub leaning to one side when surfaced at about 50 degrees, this was proved by the Greek captain onboard during sea trials took a picture with his phone through the periscope, so the greeks wouldnt take unles they fix it but the germans said theres nothing wrong with it) and a commissioning date is uncertain. The vessel successfully completed a further series of sea trials in September 2008.

The Hellenic Shipyards is building the second (Pipinos S121, launched November 2006) and third (Matrozos 122) vessels at Skaramanga. Hellenic Shipyards was acquired by HDW (now part of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems) in May 2002. A fourth vessel, Katsonis (S123) was ordered by Greece in June 2002 and is expected to commission in 2012.Type 214 submarines for the Hellenic Navy are armed with the WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wirSubaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery.
(copy paste from another website)



Some more pics, Im glad my previus pics help. No front view pics sorry.

267326742675
________
Vapir One (http://www.vaporshop.com/one-vaporizer.html)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Thanks, Andy.
________
RHODE ISLAND DISPENSARY (http://rhodeisland.dispensaries.org/)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Thank you for the pictures, Marcos. Good stuff. And the background info on the ship building program over there was interesting and useful.

David,
________
Toyota Classic Specifications (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Classic)

[Outrider]

Here's a little more background on the 214s...

They're built by HDW in Keil, Germany or, as a condition of sale, in other yards. Defense acquisitions often result in co-production arrangements because of political considerations. (Seems like nobody wants to buy from "some damn furriners".)

In many cases where HDW is involved the work is split, with the more sophisticated work often done in Germany (e.g. AIP propulsion systems), and the bulky work (e.g. welding, plumbing, wiring) done locally. In the Greek case, the first sub was built in Germany, and, as was already pointed out, the others built locally in Greece. BTW, as a condition of the 214 program sale to Greece, HDW bought Helenic Shipyards, which is the yard building the remainder of the Greek Type 214s. The Greek Navy wants to commission the Greek built Type 214s, but since HDW owns the Greek shipyard this may be a problem as long as the Papanikolis situation remains unresolved.

HDW thinks Papanikolis is ready to go and wants the remaining money as specified by the contract. The Greek Navy seems to view the Papanikolis as damaged goods, probably has some issue with late delivery, and seems to have already paid 80% up front. Given the recent and ongoing concerns with the Greek deficit (which is blamed by some as depressing the value of the Euro) this may not go well for the Greek Navy. (The Greek government needs to cut its deficit to satisfy its fiscal critics.)

On the other hand, it's tough to know what the market would be for the Papanikolis. The Germans are discriminating vendors, so some who would pay handsomely would probably not be given the chance to buy. (e.g. Taiwan). The few prospective European customers are having deficit issues, which means they would be bargain shopping. (e.g. Poland) Since the Greeks would get some portion of their 80% back, there's probably not a lot of profit potential for HDW. I'm surprised HDW hasn't just taken a big tax write-off, especially since a pier side Papanikolis can't inspire much confidence in the class. Put Papanikolis out in the Med, have it succeed in some NATO exercises, and watch sales grow. Leave it as a weathering study for the Wizard, and all of a sudden the competition to the Type 214 starts looking a lot better.

HDW is building at least three 214s in Germany for export. In many of the recent photos of the HDW yard in Kiel, you'll see the Portuguese Tridente out of the water and the Greek Papanikolis pier side. Both have "Kiel" painted on the sail. I assume this is because HDW owns the subs until they've passed their sea trials and are accepted by the foreign government. The subs are commercial or private vessels until they change hands, so they would need appropriate markings for a German ship.

The Portuguese 214s are a very interesting study in military acquisition. The Portuguese 214s are often listed as Type 209PN. This stems from a legal battle over the contract award, which HDW won. Many other nations competed for the contract including the Dutch, French, and Swedes. HDW offered the 209 and won the bidding, then upped the ante to the 214. (Don't know why the change was made, but it's hard to see why the Portuguese would object to the improvements.) The case went to court (the French sued), but the sale was resolved in HDW's favor in part because HDW called the subs 209s. It's very common for the losers to make legal challenges to any big ticket acquisition. (e.g. U.S. Air Force Aerial Tanker competition.)

Defects with the first 214 listed here: http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/dec06-52.php

My sense regarding the defects is that there were some real problems, but at this point they've been satisfactorily resolved. Here's my thinking. Papanikolis was put in the water in 2004. The next 214 built was Son Won-il, which was commissioned in late 2007, followed by Jeong Ji in 2008 and An Jung-geun at the end of 2009. If the problems with Papanikolis hadn't been fixed, the Koreans would probably be raising a stink, too.

This means the Type 214 design itself is likely fine. There could be build issues with Papanikolis, though. Were I taking possession of Tridente , I'd also want to take Papanikolis for a test drive just to compare performance. If I were running HDW, I'd make sure that the Portuguese were happy with Tridente and that the Portuguese then served to validate that Papanikolis was working to spec. Lots of "he said, she said" here and some basis for genuine disagreement. Would be best to get a competent and disinterested third party involved.

As to the future of the Type 214, the Type 209s that form the bulk of Western sub exports since the '70s are reaching the end of their service lives. Most 209 customers seem happy with the product, so I'd expect nations are predisposed to go back to HDW for the next sale if they decide to replace their subs. Submarines are incredibly useful warships, especially in the context of economically defending against powerful surface fleets. Any nation that wants to actually have a Navy capable of defending its sea space from a surface based threat really needs to invest in subs like the 214 if they can't go nuke. It will be interesting to see how the Type 209s get replaced, because that's where the numbers are. No more stop-n-shop for ex-US Guppies waiting for a good home.
________
OREGON MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARY (http://oregon.dispensaries.org/)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Wow! Very good info there -- As I'm sure with you and others, it's easier to get involved with a model kits assembly if you become cognizant of the prototypes origins, development, and service history. Thanks for the back-story, Jim.

David,
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SUZUKI TS90 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Suzuki_TS90)

[Outrider]

I still haven't found anything recent that addresses the status of the Portuguese 214s. I did find this source that talks about the Greek submarine program.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Greece-in-Default-on-U-214-Submarine-Order-05801/#more-5801

I've checked ThyssenKrupp and its relevant subsidiary (HDW) for news. Nothing reported. Jane's is quiet, too.

BTW, ThyssenKrupp also owns B&V and Kokums as well as HDW, so they dominate the export submarine business. Only Russia is close with its Kilo and variants, but those seem not to be the export submarine system of choice, even if the sub itself is capable. Buying a sub is buying a weapons system and it's the training and maintenance that really cost the big bucks, Euros, or rubles. The market seems to favor the Germans on most, if not all points. My guess is that Kokums has also done well enough for the Aussies on their Collins package, which included local assembly in Oz. There were some technical problems with Collins, but I think the key to the issues is how well Kokums and the RAN work(ed) together to solve the issues.

While researching, I also found this reference on German sub exports:

http://www.nti.org/db/submarines/germany/export.html

I wonder if there is any news of the D&E 1:144 R/C conversion... I hope it isn't in the same doldrums as the prototype. Of course, the weather hasn't been so hot in the mid-Atlantic. We got about three feet of snow in DC since Friday and had electricity outages. Lots of shoveling to do and no light does put a damper on construction.
________
Vapor genie vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/vapor-genie)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

The model build was delayed by production work -- and today I'm tightening up the design on the 1/72 torpedo launcher. hope to rejoin the project mid-week, Jim. Sorry about the delay.

David,
________
PLYMOUTH X2S HISTORY (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Plymouth_X2S)

[Outrider]

No worries at all, just stirring the pot a little to keep the board active.

You've got a lot of people waiting on the torpedoes and there will probably be a lot of production work associated with that. (Especially for our benevolent patron, whose kingdom has an effective voting population of one. That in itself, defines a market!)

My guess is that 1:72 is going to be the big seller as kits like the Gato have room to accommodate these with, perhaps, little modification--at least for the bow tubes. I suppose you may have to rethink the dimensions of some SubDrivers in order to ensure they work with torpedoes. The 1:144 214 certainly wouldn't take a torpedo system at this point (even if there were such a beast as a D&E 1:144 torpedo) as the WTC uses all of the available interior space. I also wonder about the effects of the launching system on ballast and trim. The more your R/Cs perform like "real" submarines, the more real problems to tackle.
________
Medical marijuana seeds (http://marijuanaseeds.org/)

[Outrider]

My curiosity about trim was about the effects of the weight & location of the launcher apparatus as opposed to what happens upon/after launch. I guess that anything you add forward needs to be offset aft. Since the launcher isn't made out of lead, it's probably no big deal unless somebody builds up a bank of 8 tubes. (I think I remember seeing a photo of a unit set up for an Alfa that looked like a pretty imposing chunk of metal. That said, I know you have been working hard on refining your work, and that you probably wouldn't be satisfied by something that was too heavy to be of practical use.)

I suppose the amount of gas released at launch could be an issue, since the torpedos need to be pushed out with authority to get any range and speed. With a big push, it's it's easy to see how gas bubbles could get trapped in places that are normally wet. Fixes are probably easy, though, like you said. There's this thing called a drill...
________
HONDA CB350F (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_CB350F)

[redboat219]

Dave what happened with the pictures? I subscribed to receive email updates about this thread and the last post notes about Mike giving the go ahead clearance to post pictures of the launcher.
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MERCEDES-BENZ M-CLASS SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_M-Class)

[Outrider]

The photos and the posts are here:

http://forum.sub-driver.com/showthread.php?427-Torpedoes&p=7111

For some reason, the posts moved rather than copied, and the photo thumbnails didn't make the trip. The photos are still there, though they no longer work with the photoviewer.
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XS400 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Yamaha_XS400)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

The Moderator's here are still trying to learn the system. Jim attempted to copy, not delete, the post about the torpedo work. No nefarious intent on anyone's part, Redboat210. I'll put those shots down again here:

28342835283628372838283928402841284228432844
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Ford Explorer Sport Trac Specifications (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Explorer_Sport_Trac)

[Markos1388]

David , I have a question about frequencies for my U214, I have found a bargain transmitter package but its 35MHz, will it still work underwater or must I buy a 72-75 MHz transmitter?

http://www.modelzone.co.uk/optic_6_sport_6_channel_single_conversion_35mhz_ra dio_system-details.htm
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Ford motor company lamp factory (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company_Lamp_Factory)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

David , I have a question about frequencies for my U214, I have found a bargain transmitter package but its 35MHz, will it still work underwater or must I buy a 72-75 MHz transmitter?

http://www.modelzone.co.uk/optic_6_sport_6_channel_single_conversion_35mhz_ra dio_system-details.htm

As long as that band is legal in the county/state/province where you'll be operating, yes, it will do the job just fine.

David,
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Penny stocks to watch (http://pennystockpicks.net/)

[Markos1388]

Thanks David
________
Buy Vapor Tower (http://www.vaporshop.com/vapor-tower-vaporizer.html)

[Subculture]

35mhz is ring fenced for aircraft use only.

40mhz and 27mhz are the bands suitable for model submarine use.
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RENT GUARANTEE FORUM (http://www.insurance-forums.org/rent-guarantee/)

[Outrider]

Regarding radio frequencies, you have two issues to deal with. One is does this frequency work? The other is may I use this frequency?

As far as does this frequency work? Yes, a 35 MHz signal does penetrate water at the depths you are likely to operate at and at the power you are likely to have in your transmitter. So you can use the frequency, but the next question is may you use the frequency? That depends on how the RF spectrum is allocated where you are using your sub.

As far as spectrum allocation is concerned, the rules vary by country, though some uses are harmonized. In the U.S. and in many other locations, some frequencies set aside for hobbyist uses are further differentiated by policy or agreement. It's often done for practical reasons. For example, in the U.S., 72 MHZ is for air use and 75 MHz is for surface use. If you use 72 MHz to control your sub in the local pool, you might just end up "shooting down" an R/C heli flying at the adjoining baseball field.

You might wonder "can I get away with using an air frequency with little risk?" That's like asking whether you can safely run a stop sign. Could you be "safe" doing that? Well, there are some conditions where that poses little risk, but I'm not going to tell you to do it. Also, and this is pretty important, you wouldn't just be risking your equipment, but also that of others who actually are playing by the rules.

No intent to talk down to anybody here, and plenty of folks probably know this already, but if you don't know about the right way to use your radios, and go out and do the wrong thing, there can be some serious consequences.

Back to the Type 214, is there any news on construction or sea trials? (This thread is about the Revell 1:144 Type214.) There's been a lot of smoke pouring out of the Wizard's cave, but it seems to be the work of Rose toiling away in obscurity. Pity the poor waif as she labors mightily for the Caswell empire...

Some news on the 214 might keep busy fingers from dialing child/youth protective services and inquiring about some the applicability of certain laws regarding the employment of minors in known hazardous working environments.

Enough with the torpedoes... Yes the launchers are artfully engineered and finely crafted. You've built a weapons stockpile that would threaten the viability of the Imperial Japanese High Seas Fleet. People will be thrilled to see air bubbles streak out into a 20 foot line trailing a little green cigar tube that bobs up and down after end of run.

It's 214 time again, time to see this high performing modern menace pitted against a 1:144 Kilo in mortal combat, or at least in a pylon race...
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Discuss Vaporizers (http://vaporizer.org/forum/herbal-vaporizers/)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

Jim,

Your threat of employing Child Services to get the 214 done will soon bear fruit. I'll be putting that work down soon (and the FOXTROT parts), and will get back onto the 214 job.

Very good over-view about the allocation of frequencies by the government, and why they do it. Yes, guys, insure that you don't use r/c system bands assigned for model aircraft use only. Remember: the FCC giveth, the FCC can taketh away!

David,
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Breyton (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/Breyton)

[Markos1388]

David I must apologise before hand as I have many newbie questions. How did you connect a brushed motor to the receiver as the motor has 2 wires and the receiver has 3 wires?
I hope i dont upset Outrider again by changing the subect away from your U214 again.
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Bluetec (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/BlueTec)

[Outrider]

Generally, there needs to be an ESC between the motor, the battery and the receiver. See the cabal report on the 1.25 inch SubDriver here for a basic wiring diagram:

http://forum.sub-driver.com/showthread.php?773-Assembly-Instructions-for-the-Skipjack-1-25-inch-SubDriver

You'll note that the ESC in the diagram/photo has the three wire plug that goes into the receiver. This particular ESC, one that's ideal for the Type 214, needs to be hooked up to the battery and to the motor.

There are other ways to interface between the receiver and the motor. See David's post below.
________
SARDINIAN RECIPES (http://www.cooking-chef.com/sardinian/)

[Markos1388]

Thank you very much!
________
Ford Towcommand (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_TowCommand)

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

David I must apologise before hand as I have many newbie questions. How did you connect a brushed motor to the receiver as the motor has 2 wires and the receiver has 3 wires?
I hope i dont upset Outrider again by changing the subect away from your U214 again.

There has to be an interface device between the receiver and a motor, brushed or brushless. This will either be a servo operating a mechanical switch, an electronic speed controller, or an electronic switch.

The output from the receiver port is a low current pulse train of no utility to a motor directly -- that pulse train contains the 'information' on what you want a specific device to do; the electric motor needs that information converted to a DC command of a useful voltage/current and for that current to be of the desired polarity and amplitude.

Bottom line: you don't' hook up a motor directly to the wires coming out the receiver port.

David,
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Gustav otto (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/Gustav_Otto)

[Outrider]

Time to bring this thread back up to PD...

It's still 2010, and there are a few shopping days left before Christmas. (It's not even "Black Friday" yet.)

Any chance Santa will be able to stock up on fittings for one of the modern Revell 1:144 subs or on the smaller 1:72 Special Navy kits?

Am I the only one interested?
________
Triumph america (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Triumph_America)

[vital.spark]

David, any eta for the 214 fitiings kit and subdriver? I'll be back in the States this September and would like to pick these up if they would be available.

[He Who Shall Not Be Named]

David, any eta for the 214 fitiings kit and subdriver? I'll be back in the States this September and would like to pick these up if they would be available.

I have not wrapped up either the fittings kit or the SD for the 214. Other projects and production work has intervened.

David,

[Outrider]

In the meantime...

The Greeks have finally accepted and commissioned the Papanikolis (http://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesystems.com/index_en.php?level=2&CatID=6.322&inhalt_id=556&press=426&do=showPressDetail) and the Portuguese commissioned their second Type 209 PN (which actually is a Type 214). Soon enough, we'll also see Type 214s from Turkey and from Pakistan. The South Koreans will probably have the most, though. They have three in service and 6 being built.

For those wondering the basic philosophical difference between the Type 212 and the Type 214... (both of which are kitted by Revell in 1:144)

The 212s are non-magnetic steel, something especially valuable for shallow water ops as are required in the Baltic Sea. Sit quiet on the bottom and, with no magnetic signature, they're pretty hard to find. X-tail is supposed to be an advantage in shallow water ops, too.

The 214s are more for open ocean ops. The steel has a higher magnetic signature than what's used in the 212. 214s are bigger boats (9m longer), but have about the same submerged displacement. 214s have 8 torpedo tubes vs. 6 for the Type 212. Doubt the Wizard will be able to give us any weapons in 1:144, though.